From valery_reznic at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  3 08:04:06 2011
From: valery_reznic at yahoo.com (Valery Reznic)
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 23:04:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HW/SW for license server
In-Reply-To: <62FB305B-248B-4535-97DC-61D8788A83F2@me.com>
References: <1316765991.43806.YahooMailNeo@web110308.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<4BFC47FD-4F63-4824-839A-6A7E9725359C@me.com>
	<1316942745.37462.YahooMailNeo@web110308.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<62FB305B-248B-4535-97DC-61D8788A83F2@me.com>
Message-ID: <1317621846.23402.YahooMailNeo@web110315.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions.

And shana tova.

Valery




>________________________________
>From: Marc Volovic <marcvolovic at me.com>
>To: Valery Reznic <valery_reznic at yahoo.com>
>Cc: "linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il" <linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il>
>Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 5:38 PM
>Subject: Re: HW/SW for license server
>
>
>4th is 4gb with iPhone autocorrect. Fuck apple.?
>
>
>DL1xx is is HP. Check their site.?
>
>
>>1000/sec is special
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Sep 25, 2011, at 12:25, Valery Reznic <valery_reznic at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>Thank you, Mark.
>>
>>
>>A few more questions:
>>
>>?- what is HP DL1xx-class box with 4th ram
>>- 6 request/second is trivial. On each ratio do you think it will need something special?
>>
>>
>>Valery
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>________________________________
>>>From: Marc Volovic <marcvolovic at me.com>
>>>To: Valery Reznic <valery_reznic at yahoo.com>
>>>Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 12:03 PM
>>>Subject: Re: HW/SW for license server
>>>
>>>
>>>Dear valery,
>>>
>>>
>>>6 requests per second is trivial. Get the cheapest HP DL1xx-class box with 4th ram and the cheapest CPU you can manage.?
>>>
>>>
>>>M
>>>
>>>
>>>Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>On Sep 23, 2011, at 11:19, Valery Reznic <valery_reznic at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi, All.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I need to setup license server and looking for advice what hardware/software to use
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>General schema is following:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>There are about 20K clients all of them periodically (let say once a week) query license server for license via https
>>>>
>>>>I'll try my best to spread all those requests over the week, but in worse case scenario all those 20K request can came during 1hour,
>>>>spread relative evenly i.e about 6 request/sec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>When license server get request it query database ~20K records with 2-3 small fields, generate license and return it to client.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>License generation is light - md5sum of the very small input ( few hundreds bytes)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I think use following software for it
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>1. CentOS 6
>>>>
>>>>2. Apache with mod_python
>>>>3. Mysql
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>My questions about software are:
>>>>1. License server software is likely to be written in python, hence mod_python.
>>>>? If I'll use python as CGI instead of Apache module, will it result in significant performance drop?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>2. How configure apache - what is reasonable settings for MaxClient parameter?
>>>>?? Any other important settings?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>3. Use Mysql or Postgres? Or something else?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hardware questions are:
>>>>1. What computer should I use for this task
>>>>??? i386 or x86-64?
>>>>?? how much memory?
>>>>?? disk spaces?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>2. What hosting company to buy this server from?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Do you have any experience or suggestions to share?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thank you,
>>>>Valery.
>>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>Linux-il mailing list
>>>>Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>>>>http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
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From info at industrialphys.com  Mon Oct  3 08:44:35 2011
From: info at industrialphys.com (Shimon Panfil)
Date: Mon,  3 Oct 2011 08:44:35 +0200
Subject: problems with freshmeat/slashdot
Message-ID: <20111003084435.gjlqfqimud28o808@69.49.230.6>


Hi friends,
am I the only one who experience problems with freshmeat and/or  
slashdot for last few days? The problem seems to be that connections  
to image servers is blocked.
Who did it? Provider? my home IP (persistent) is in some black list?
I have no problems getting these sites from work, and also no problem  
with text browser. Any ideas?
TIA, Shimon

-- 
Shimon Panfil: Industrial Physics and Simulations
http://industrialphys.com


From linux-il at shimi.net  Mon Oct  3 08:51:59 2011
From: linux-il at shimi.net (shimi)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 08:51:59 +0200
Subject: problems with freshmeat/slashdot
In-Reply-To: <20111003084435.gjlqfqimud28o808@69.49.230.6>
References: <20111003084435.gjlqfqimud28o808@69.49.230.6>
Message-ID: <CAKnt4U_07f_Joaew6uwYR+dL33QYMTAhGC71T6+Gu8BW50C4TQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Shimon Panfil <info at industrialphys.com>wrote:

>
> Hi friends,
> am I the only one who experience problems with freshmeat and/or slashdot
> for last few days? The problem seems to be that connections to image servers
> is blocked.
> Who did it? Provider? my home IP (persistent) is in some black list?
> I have no problems getting these sites from work, and also no problem with
> text browser. Any ideas?
> TIA, Shimon
>
> --
>
>
No problems on my end. They both serve their images from the same resource:
a.fsdn.com - which at least for me goes to an Akamai CDN machine. Maybe we
don't share the same Akamai node. I am sent to e872.g.akamaiedge.net at the
moment, which, like I said, works fine. See if you go to a different one
('nslookup a.fsdn.com' would do the trick...).

If you do go to a different Akamai node, try sticking 92.122.131.172
a.fsdn.com to your /etc/hosts and see if helps.

-- Shimi
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From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Mon Oct  3 08:57:59 2011
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 08:57:59 +0200
Subject: problems with freshmeat/slashdot
In-Reply-To: <20111003084435.gjlqfqimud28o808@69.49.230.6>
References: <20111003084435.gjlqfqimud28o808@69.49.230.6>
Message-ID: <20111003085759.38b608ea@lap.shlomifish.org>

Hi Shimon,

On Mon,  3 Oct 2011 08:44:35 +0200
Shimon Panfil <info at industrialphys.com> wrote:

> 
> Hi friends,
> am I the only one who experience problems with freshmeat and/or  
> slashdot for last few days? The problem seems to be that connections  
> to image servers is blocked.

I've tested http://freshmeat.net/ and http://slashdot.org/ now and they seem to
work fine from here - images and everything. My ISP is Bezeq International.

> Who did it? Provider? my home IP (persistent) is in some black list?

What is your home's ISP?

> I have no problems getting these sites from work, and also no problem  
> with text browser. Any ideas?

What is your ISP at work?

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

> TIA, Shimon
> 



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
My Aphorisms - http://www.shlomifish.org/humour.html

He says ?One and one and one is three?.
Got to be good?looking ?cause he?s so hard to see.
    ? The Beatles, ?Come Together?

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .


From sara.fink at gmail.com  Tue Oct  4 16:17:49 2011
From: sara.fink at gmail.com (sara fink)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:17:49 +0200
Subject: HTC Android handsets spew private data to ANY app
Message-ID: <CAKsgyTZCaxNEOyjr56T0uhDQtRi8BwPPo1wGrTbAR=ZgpR+-FA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/03/htc_android_security/
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From erez0001 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  4 16:58:50 2011
From: erez0001 at gmail.com (Erez D)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:58:50 +0200
Subject: looking for an embedded linux hw.
In-Reply-To: <CAMUp3wniaM=bS6DcZVGbD98aLwiEAY_a5ShwXk_9-wXk0dDJEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMUp3wniaM=bS6DcZVGbD98aLwiEAY_a5ShwXk_9-wXk0dDJEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMUp3wmWuSJ5TXjZVdK91xHRSkKvyFyHd4sO6StxjLw1VmRCQQ@mail.gmail.com>

btw, I found open-rd.org. as far as i see it is a sheeva-plug, and there are
both software, hardware schematics etc...
i think the seeva-plug derivatives (e.g seagate dockstar) are a subset of
that design
I saw websites with instructions on how to add anothe GBE or how to add an
SD to the Dockstar, taking open-rd.org's schematics ...

should be nice of any sheevaplug hacker.

erez.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Erez D <erez0001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello
>
> We need to design a system, which communicates data at rates of around
> 30Mbs via ethernet.
> We are designing the hardware from scratch.
>
> I Thought of assembling a board with a processor (which will run linux) and
> a small fpga.
>
> However, I do not want to invent the wheel. don't want to port linux to a
> new system. don't want to create my own reference design.
>
> So i am looking for a reference design for the hardware. and an open source
> project which will supply the linux system and toolchain.
>
> Anybody knows of such a project which both has a hardware reference and
> toolchain ?
>
>
> Thanks,
> erez,
>
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From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct  4 17:04:25 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 17:04:25 +0200
Subject: HTC Android handsets spew private data to ANY app
In-Reply-To: <CAKsgyTZCaxNEOyjr56T0uhDQtRi8BwPPo1wGrTbAR=ZgpR+-FA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKsgyTZCaxNEOyjr56T0uhDQtRi8BwPPo1wGrTbAR=ZgpR+-FA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtQGCHVGmiizyYRj-LjnZc58oA_2a_7j+GUHJWsJy_fiSg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/4 sara fink <sara.fink at gmail.com>:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/03/htc_android_security/

Hold your breath:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/04/htc_security_fix/

;-)

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From shachar at shemesh.biz  Tue Oct  4 18:02:11 2011
From: shachar at shemesh.biz (Shachar Shemesh)
Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 18:02:11 +0200
Subject: looking for an embedded linux hw.
In-Reply-To: <CAMUp3wniaM=bS6DcZVGbD98aLwiEAY_a5ShwXk_9-wXk0dDJEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMUp3wniaM=bS6DcZVGbD98aLwiEAY_a5ShwXk_9-wXk0dDJEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E8B2E03.9010100@shemesh.biz>

On 09/15/2011 02:37 PM, Erez D wrote:
> Hello
>
> We need to design a system, which communicates data at rates of around
> 30Mbs via ethernet.
> We are designing the hardware from scratch.
>
> I Thought of assembling a board with a processor (which will run
> linux) and a small fpga.
>
> However, I do not want to invent the wheel. don't want to port linux
> to a new system. don't want to create my own reference design.
>
> So i am looking for a reference design for the hardware. and an open
> source project which will supply the linux system and toolchain.
>
> Anybody knows of such a project which both has a hardware reference
> and toolchain ?
Freescale's iMX53 have a quickstart board sold for about $200 ($150 if
you want it without the LCD). It has fully open source Linux, and the
schematics are available for download from the FreeScale site (including
the source files, in a format whose name I forget).

Full toolchain and BSP are available, though, of course, if you replace
components, you will need to change the kernel's init code accordingly.
This is the bane of all ARM architectures, however, and nothing specific
to the iMX brand. It is considerably more powerful than the Sheeva plug,
assuming that's of interest to you.

Shachar
>
>
> Thanks,
> erez,
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il


-- 
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com

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From sara.fink at gmail.com  Tue Oct  4 18:29:46 2011
From: sara.fink at gmail.com (sara fink)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 18:29:46 +0200
Subject: HTC Android handsets spew private data to ANY app
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtQGCHVGmiizyYRj-LjnZc58oA_2a_7j+GUHJWsJy_fiSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKsgyTZCaxNEOyjr56T0uhDQtRi8BwPPo1wGrTbAR=ZgpR+-FA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtQGCHVGmiizyYRj-LjnZc58oA_2a_7j+GUHJWsJy_fiSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKsgyTZetMPaTzD=-X9hbsFGpejGdxe2oBxdR1Bj+7CQqh-kzQ@mail.gmail.com>

Nice.

But see this comment:

the question is not how long for a fix (although tht's important),
it's... #<http://forums.theregister.co.uk/post/1190903>

Why -and when - did HTC "decide" to log user activity? Surely that's a
breach of privacy? On the other hand, if this is a package that provides
user feedback, with the users express permission, why was it unsecured?


and 2nd in the original post, htc didn't respond until it was made public.

Points to consider.


On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 5:04 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org> wrote:

> 2011/10/4 sara fink <sara.fink at gmail.com>:
> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/03/htc_android_security/
>
> Hold your breath:
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/04/htc_security_fix/
>
> ;-)
>
> --
> Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org
>
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From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct  4 19:40:18 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 19:40:18 +0200
Subject: [OT] Re: HTC Android handsets spew private data to ANY app
In-Reply-To: <CAKsgyTZetMPaTzD=-X9hbsFGpejGdxe2oBxdR1Bj+7CQqh-kzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKsgyTZCaxNEOyjr56T0uhDQtRi8BwPPo1wGrTbAR=ZgpR+-FA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtQGCHVGmiizyYRj-LjnZc58oA_2a_7j+GUHJWsJy_fiSg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKsgyTZetMPaTzD=-X9hbsFGpejGdxe2oBxdR1Bj+7CQqh-kzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtQxF8FCuLw+K4J68KY8bOx05Y=0RGTey0ezhaCgwurr6w@mail.gmail.com>

NB: marked [OT] in subject, I believe in conformance with an earlier
discussion on Android topics on Linux-IL (that I am too lazy to dig up
a link to in the archives).

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:29 PM, sara fink <sara.fink at gmail.com> wrote:

> Why -and when - did HTC "decide" to log user activity? Surely that's a
> breach of privacy?

Not in itself. It's logged locally, on your device And it is not
particularly unusual. The problem is that the context is different
from what we (Linux users) are used to.

Any system records user activity. UNIX/Linux has logs, last(1), shell
history, process audit, etc., etc. Your browser has a history. One can
go on and on.

We all hope that a random user level application does not collect
information from those logs and send it to the internet. In some cases
it is forbidden by security measures (e.g., /var/log/messages cannot
be read by applications without privileges). In some cases, the only
recourse is audit (by whatever means necessary) or trust.

Assume you install a binary application written by John Q. Malicious
(or Skype/Microsoft, just to stir things up a bit :) - as a regular
user. And you run it as you. Nothing (nothing a casual user is capable
of, that is) will prevent this application from reading your shell
command history, browser cookies and history, your ~/.ssh/id_rsa, etc.
All of those are readable by you, and by running the application you
gave it your credentials. If it sends packets to the internet without
you noticing it, it's your problem. if your computer is
employer-provided and you are clueless then you installing random
software on it is the sysadmin's headache.

The problem with smartphones that some sensitive information is
available to regular users. When you install Android applications, you
are supposed to check what facilities it can access. E.g., a reminder
application has a reasonable need to access your contacts (you want to
look up a contact when making a reminder to call him) and phone state
(don't interrupt phone calls, light up the display if it is dark,
etc.). It probably does not need to access internet. Did it ask at
installation time? Did you say yes? Have you checked that it doesn't,
in fact, access the internet and send all your contacts to
telemarketing providers or to Hezballah?

If this is a package that provides location information to something
like Waze needs to access the network and your location info. If you
install and enable it it is assumed you understand the risks.

The problem with (some) HTCs was that it opened the logs to everyone
regardless of permissions (if I understood correctly). A related
problem is that so many apps are ad-funded (which is not common on
Linux) and thus request internet access - to get the ads - that they
wouldn't need otherwise. And people used to installing stuff by
clicking "next" repeatedly don't stop and think.

Oh, and something named androidvncserver.apk and installed by default
by HTC does look scary...

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From stan.goodman at hashkedim.com  Tue Oct  4 23:28:49 2011
From: stan.goodman at hashkedim.com (Stan Goodman)
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 23:28:49 +0200
Subject: New (First!) smart phone   (OT_
Message-ID: <201110042328.49186.stan.goodman@hashkedim.com>

As per Subject, this is my first smart phone, and I am engaged in trying 
to discover if I myself as smart as it is; the outlook is bleak. More 
than it should be because the documentation seems to be written for a 
reader who already knows the score and needs only a bit of memory 
nudging to recall the drill. As OT as this is, I hope I can ask here for 
answers to a few questions.

The instrument is HTC Aria. The two questions that are bugging me at the 
moment are:

1) The on-screen keyboard for writing messages defeats me, because the 
"keys" are absurdly narrow, certainly more so than my fingers, and there 
is absolutely no chance that I would ever be able to peck out even a 
short coherent message with them. This suggests that there must be a way 
to type with a stylus, rather then directly with fingers. I have tried 
to use objects made of various materials, but so far nothing works. How 
do people type on these things?

2) I succeeded in telphoning to a friend this evening, to his land-line 
phone. For a while, the sound I got was quite good and distinct, but 
after a bit, it began to fade in and out, so that cconversation became 
intermittent and impossible. There is a cell-phone tower less than a 
kilometer away from my home. Is this the level of service that I have to 
look forward too? The fading suggests that the communication may be 
affected by passing vehiles; is this possiblle over such a short 
distance?
-- 
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel


From ezaton at tournament.org.il  Wed Oct  5 01:09:16 2011
From: ezaton at tournament.org.il (Etzion Bar-Noy)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 01:09:16 +0200
Subject: New (First!) smart phone (OT_
In-Reply-To: <201110042328.49186.stan.goodman@hashkedim.com>
References: <201110042328.49186.stan.goodman@hashkedim.com>
Message-ID: <CA+vBjEcTTE=NDNvBZiH0UXHm6A6kqdrgYezMVTq0EyirnggVnw@mail.gmail.com>

Welcome to the world of the cellular.
First - there are various keyboards available for the device. Their key size
might differ, layout might differ, and ease of use, for you in person, would
differ as well.
About stylus - you will need a device designed for capacitive screen.
Although I am not familiar with your device in particular, most devices
today are capacitive, meaning they react to the human electrical charge, our
something like that. You can purchase such a device for very cheap at deal
extreme, or for very expensive in Israel.

Service quality differ depending on many factors. Usually, passing cars are
not part of them. It could be that your friend's land line phone was a
wireless one, and it's all his "fault". Could be that you are in the area of
overlapping cellular antennas, and your call switched between cells. Try to
wait before judging the system just a little while. Most people do not feel
that land lines are superior compared to cellular communication. This could
be because, from the perspective of the caller - it is not.

Good luck and enjoy your new device.

Ez
On Oct 4, 2011 11:28 PM, "Stan Goodman" <stan.goodman at hashkedim.com> wrote:
> As per Subject, this is my first smart phone, and I am engaged in trying
> to discover if I myself as smart as it is; the outlook is bleak. More
> than it should be because the documentation seems to be written for a
> reader who already knows the score and needs only a bit of memory
> nudging to recall the drill. As OT as this is, I hope I can ask here for
> answers to a few questions.
>
> The instrument is HTC Aria. The two questions that are bugging me at the
> moment are:
>
> 1) The on-screen keyboard for writing messages defeats me, because the
> "keys" are absurdly narrow, certainly more so than my fingers, and there
> is absolutely no chance that I would ever be able to peck out even a
> short coherent message with them. This suggests that there must be a way
> to type with a stylus, rather then directly with fingers. I have tried
> to use objects made of various materials, but so far nothing works. How
> do people type on these things?
>
> 2) I succeeded in telphoning to a friend this evening, to his land-line
> phone. For a while, the sound I got was quite good and distinct, but
> after a bit, it began to fade in and out, so that cconversation became
> intermittent and impossible. There is a cell-phone tower less than a
> kilometer away from my home. Is this the level of service that I have to
> look forward too? The fading suggests that the communication may be
> affected by passing vehiles; is this possiblle over such a short
> distance?
> --
> Stan Goodman
> Qiryat Tiv'on
> Israel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
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From michf at post.tau.ac.il  Wed Oct  5 01:53:21 2011
From: michf at post.tau.ac.il (Micha)
Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 01:53:21 +0200
Subject: New (First!) smart phone (OT_
In-Reply-To: <CA+vBjEcTTE=NDNvBZiH0UXHm6A6kqdrgYezMVTq0EyirnggVnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201110042328.49186.stan.goodman@hashkedim.com>
	<CA+vBjEcTTE=NDNvBZiH0UXHm6A6kqdrgYezMVTq0EyirnggVnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E8B9C71.5080904@post.tau.ac.il>

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From erez0001 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 09:53:02 2011
From: erez0001 at gmail.com (Erez D)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 09:53:02 +0200
Subject: looking for an embedded linux hw.
In-Reply-To: <4E8B2E03.9010100@shemesh.biz>
References: <CAMUp3wniaM=bS6DcZVGbD98aLwiEAY_a5ShwXk_9-wXk0dDJEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E8B2E03.9010100@shemesh.biz>
Message-ID: <CAMUp3wnHsfvwsRJ7DRKHf-=MVF1padXnhVw3gEr4rm=WVchqkA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Shachar Shemesh <shachar at shemesh.biz> wrote:

>  On 09/15/2011 02:37 PM, Erez D wrote:
>
> Hello
>
> We need to design a system, which communicates data at rates of around
> 30Mbs via ethernet.
> We are designing the hardware from scratch.
>
> I Thought of assembling a board with a processor (which will run linux) and
> a small fpga.
>
> However, I do not want to invent the wheel. don't want to port linux to a
> new system. don't want to create my own reference design.
>
> So i am looking for a reference design for the hardware. and an open source
> project which will supply the linux system and toolchain.
>
> Anybody knows of such a project which both has a hardware reference and
> toolchain ?
>
> Freescale's iMX53 have a quickstart board sold for about $200 ($150 if you
> want it without the LCD). It has fully open source Linux, and the schematics
> are available for download from the FreeScale site (including the source
> files, in a format whose name I forget).
>
> Full toolchain and BSP are available, though, of course, if you replace
> components, you will need to change the kernel's init code accordingly. This
> is the bane of all ARM architectures, however, and nothing specific to the
> iMX brand. It is considerably more powerful than the Sheeva plug, assuming
> that's of interest to you.
>
> Shachar
>
> Thanks for your suggestion

In the sheevaplug (actually i tested the dockstar).
i got the dockstar for 50USD in israel (used it as an eval board)
it has a 1GB ethernet, i read reports saying it is able to acheve actual
around 320Mbps rates as a router.
i was able to utilize it's serial port at 16Mbps. it is not the 30Mbps i
wanted, but will do for now. it is almost effortless to implement a uart on
the fpga, so i chose a uart as it's interface of choice, though it supports
faster things (usb2) but implementing usb client on the fpga is expensive
both in time and money.
btw, with a preliminary null modem test i was able to connect a tcp to the
board which connected the stream from/to the tcp to the serial port. it
worked great with sustained full duplex 2x8Mbps.

I took a look at the iMX53  quickstart board
It has only a 100Mbps ethernet.
the processor has a serial port, but i do not know the max baud i can get.
I will probably examine it further later.

Thanks,
erez.


>
>
> Thanks,
> erez,
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing listLinux-il at cs.huji.ac.ilhttp://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
>
> --
> Shachar Shemesh
> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>
>
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From baruch at tkos.co.il  Wed Oct  5 10:18:06 2011
From: baruch at tkos.co.il (Baruch Siach)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 10:18:06 +0200
Subject: looking for an embedded linux hw.
In-Reply-To: <CAMUp3wnHsfvwsRJ7DRKHf-=MVF1padXnhVw3gEr4rm=WVchqkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMUp3wniaM=bS6DcZVGbD98aLwiEAY_a5ShwXk_9-wXk0dDJEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E8B2E03.9010100@shemesh.biz>
	<CAMUp3wnHsfvwsRJ7DRKHf-=MVF1padXnhVw3gEr4rm=WVchqkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111005081806.GA14382@sapphire.tkos.co.il>

Hi Erez,

On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 09:53:02AM +0200, Erez D wrote:
> In the sheevaplug (actually i tested the dockstar).
> i got the dockstar for 50USD in israel (used it as an eval board)
> it has a 1GB ethernet, i read reports saying it is able to acheve actual
> around 320Mbps rates as a router.
> i was able to utilize it's serial port at 16Mbps. it is not the 30Mbps i
> wanted, but will do for now.

Wow. I didn't know that these rates are at all possible with a regular serial 
port. Did you do any special kernel modifications for this? Or is the BOTHER 
thing from include/asm-generic/termbits.h enough to make it just work?

What limitation prevented you from doing 30Mbps, if I may ask?

baruch

-- 
                                                     ~. .~   Tk Open Systems
=}------------------------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo------------{=
   - baruch at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -


From erez0001 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 10:28:13 2011
From: erez0001 at gmail.com (Erez D)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 10:28:13 +0200
Subject: looking for an embedded linux hw.
In-Reply-To: <20111005081806.GA14382@sapphire.tkos.co.il>
References: <CAMUp3wniaM=bS6DcZVGbD98aLwiEAY_a5ShwXk_9-wXk0dDJEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E8B2E03.9010100@shemesh.biz>
	<CAMUp3wnHsfvwsRJ7DRKHf-=MVF1padXnhVw3gEr4rm=WVchqkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111005081806.GA14382@sapphire.tkos.co.il>
Message-ID: <CAMUp3wmdk24fztCapz5v8TGyT+DPrsdSipmAwf3XmQ-qLfsQXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Baruch Siach <baruch at tkos.co.il> wrote:

> Hi Erez,
>
> On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 09:53:02AM +0200, Erez D wrote:
> > In the sheevaplug (actually i tested the dockstar).
> > i got the dockstar for 50USD in israel (used it as an eval board)
> > it has a 1GB ethernet, i read reports saying it is able to acheve actual
> > around 320Mbps rates as a router.
> > i was able to utilize it's serial port at 16Mbps. it is not the 30Mbps i
> > wanted, but will do for now.
>
> Wow. I didn't know that these rates are at all possible with a regular
> serial
> port. Did you do any special kernel modifications for this? Or is the
> BOTHER
> thing from include/asm-generic/termbits.h enough to make it just work?
>
> What limitation prevented you from doing 30Mbps, if I may ask?
>
> The serial baud rates are derived from a clock, which is divided by a
divider (and then usually divided again by 4).
you can set the baud rate to any tandard one (if supported by hardware).
however you can simply supply the divide_by value (if hardware supports
that, not all hw does, many usb-serial e.g. pl2303 based , does not support
that).
with setserial, you first set the baud to 38400, then enable speed_cust,
then set the divider to a value you want
with divider=1 i got around 13 or 16 Mbps.
as serial port usually uses a clock divided by 4 ( in addition to be divided
by the divider),
i guess the clk speed is around 13*4= about 50 Mhz.

so it seems the maximum speed should be around 13Mbps. full duplex of
course.

The problem with the dockstart (i think it is with any sheevaplug) is that
the hardware flow control pins are unavailable (without soldering + updating
the driver) so i work with xon/xoff.

erez.

> baruch
>
> --
>                                                     ~. .~   Tk Open Systems
> =}------------------------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo------------{=
>   - baruch at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
>
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From shachar at shemesh.biz  Wed Oct  5 11:14:57 2011
From: shachar at shemesh.biz (Shachar Shemesh)
Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 11:14:57 +0200
Subject: looking for an embedded linux hw.
In-Reply-To: <CAMUp3wmdk24fztCapz5v8TGyT+DPrsdSipmAwf3XmQ-qLfsQXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMUp3wniaM=bS6DcZVGbD98aLwiEAY_a5ShwXk_9-wXk0dDJEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E8B2E03.9010100@shemesh.biz>
	<CAMUp3wnHsfvwsRJ7DRKHf-=MVF1padXnhVw3gEr4rm=WVchqkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111005081806.GA14382@sapphire.tkos.co.il>
	<CAMUp3wmdk24fztCapz5v8TGyT+DPrsdSipmAwf3XmQ-qLfsQXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E8C2011.4030001@shemesh.biz>

On 10/05/2011 10:28 AM, Erez D wrote:
>
>
> The serial baud rates are derived from a clock, which is divided by a
> divider (and then usually divided again by 4).
> you can set the baud rate to any tandard one (if supported by hardware).
> however you can simply supply the divide_by value (if hardware
> supports that, not all hw does, many usb-serial e.g. pl2303 based ,
> does not support that).
I'm not sure what SoC the Sheeva is using, but doesn't it have external
memory access pins you can hook your FPGA to? Wouldn't that be much
faster than anything a UART will provide (and not be considerably more
difficult to implement in FPGA)?

Shachar

-- 
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com

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From erez0001 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 11:48:44 2011
From: erez0001 at gmail.com (Erez D)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 11:48:44 +0200
Subject: looking for an embedded linux hw.
In-Reply-To: <4E8C2011.4030001@shemesh.biz>
References: <CAMUp3wniaM=bS6DcZVGbD98aLwiEAY_a5ShwXk_9-wXk0dDJEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E8B2E03.9010100@shemesh.biz>
	<CAMUp3wnHsfvwsRJ7DRKHf-=MVF1padXnhVw3gEr4rm=WVchqkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111005081806.GA14382@sapphire.tkos.co.il>
	<CAMUp3wmdk24fztCapz5v8TGyT+DPrsdSipmAwf3XmQ-qLfsQXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E8C2011.4030001@shemesh.biz>
Message-ID: <CAMUp3wkaoLTQmqWrTTCsTCbGTs1CQvCcKjVZBi436XRcxpbDNQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Shachar Shemesh <shachar at shemesh.biz>wrote:

>  On 10/05/2011 10:28 AM, Erez D wrote:
>
>
>
> The serial baud rates are derived from a clock, which is divided by a
> divider (and then usually divided again by 4).
> you can set the baud rate to any tandard one (if supported by hardware).
> however you can simply supply the divide_by value (if hardware supports
> that, not all hw does, many usb-serial e.g. pl2303 based , does not support
> that).
>
> I'm not sure what SoC the Sheeva is using, but doesn't it have external
> memory access pins you can hook your FPGA to? Wouldn't that be much faster
> than anything a UART will provide (and not be considerably more difficult to
> implement in FPGA)?
>
it uses a marvel SOC (afaik sheevaplug is a marvel refernce design).
actually i wanted more of a streaming connection then a mem-map one, but
connecting directly to the dram interface could be a nice idea.
this would involve creating a dram interface on the fpga, and connecting to
the dram bus. this would also lessen the amount of dram i can have.
I guess currently i would stick with the uart solution. if it would be too
slow, and i would have my own board (currnetly i am using the dockstar), i
would really consider using the dram interface.

thanks for the nice idea
erez.


> Shachar
>
>
> --
> Shachar Shemesh
> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>
>
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From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Wed Oct  5 14:55:30 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 14:55:30 +0200
Subject: The next threat to free software: Siri?
Message-ID: <20111005125530.GA12506@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

Hi,

When I heard Apple's announcements yesterday, the thing that worried me most
is "Siri", their new voice interface - which allows users to give their machine
voice commands in free language, and have responses spoken back to them.

It's still too early to tell whether Siri is the best thing since sliced
bread, or maybe it's the worst UI since Microsoft Bob; But it definitely
has the potential to be closer to the former, not the latter. What worries
me is that the free software world does not have a response prepared for Siri.
Or at least not one that I'm aware of - Is anyone aware of free software
that is capable of something more than robotic speech synthesis? And any
sort of speech understanding? Even if just in English?

I'm afraid that if Siri becomes an important feature for consumers, then
Android phones and tablets, as well as desktops running Linux, will be missing
this feature. I don't want to see individual handset makers (e.g., Samsung,
Motorola, etc.) developing this feature because that would mean that only
some of the Android handsets will have it, and desktop Linux would not have
it at all.... Maybe Google will develop this for the benefit of everyone,
but then again, maybe one day Google will grow tired of not doing Evil, and
will stop doing the dirty work for other companies for free?

Some might remember that this is actually not the first time I mention
this worry. Six years ago, long before Siri (and a couple of years before
iPhone was released), I voiced exactly the same concern when I talked about
the next hurdles for Hebrew in free software:

	http://linmagazine.co.il/node/view/9973

(see the last section there)

Nadav.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                  Wednesday, Oct 5 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |I don't eat snails. I prefer fast food.
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |


From erez0001 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  5 15:18:57 2011
From: erez0001 at gmail.com (Erez D)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 15:18:57 +0200
Subject: The next threat to free software: Siri?
In-Reply-To: <20111005125530.GA12506@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <20111005125530.GA12506@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <CAMUp3wmDoBvD-oEy8uMTrfrU0EyBf+sRJiDcvAU2hUR7WdjAiw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Nadav Har'El <nyh at math.technion.ac.il>wrote:

> Hi,
>
> When I heard Apple's announcements yesterday, the thing that worried me
> most
> is "Siri", their new voice interface - which allows users to give their
> machine
> voice commands in free language, and have responses spoken back to them.
>
> It's still too early to tell whether Siri is the best thing since sliced
> bread, or maybe it's the worst UI since Microsoft Bob; But it definitely
> has the potential to be closer to the former, not the latter. What worries
> me is that the free software world does not have a response prepared for
> Siri.
> Or at least not one that I'm aware of - Is anyone aware of free software
> that is capable of something more than robotic speech synthesis? And any
> sort of speech understanding? Even if just in English?
>
> I'm afraid that if Siri becomes an important feature for consumers, then
> Android phones and tablets, as well as desktops running Linux, will be
> missing
> this feature. I don't want to see individual handset makers (e.g., Samsung,
> Motorola, etc.) developing this feature because that would mean that only
> some of the Android handsets will have it, and desktop Linux would not have
> it at all.... Maybe Google will develop this for the benefit of everyone,
> but then again, maybe one day Google will grow tired of not doing Evil, and
> will stop doing the dirty work for other companies for free?
>
>  well, you are right to worry about some features missing open source
implementations.
however android is a different issue.
first of all. google can add a closed app that will give support to phones
of htc, samsung, etc ...
of course this will not be part of the open source addition. however android
market is not open also ...
on the other hand. although android in general is open, but the actual
android systems are not exactly free (freedom)
you usually are not able to do what you like with your phone, if it is not
rooted, and some phones (e.g. atrix afaik) will only boot to a rom that is
digitally signed so you will not be able to burn open source version ...
so android would not be my first worry

android for me is not that far than what windows used to be few years
earlier

i see resemblance of old pc market - apple(closed) vs microsoft (also close
but less restrictive) to today's apple(closed) vs android (not really open
practically).
my 2c is that apple didn't learn their lesson from last battle with
microsoft, and apple(iphone) will be more of a niche market, which will be
taken mostly by android. similiar as what was before apple (mac) vs
microsoft.

> Some might remember that this is actually not the first time I mention
> this worry. Six years ago, long before Siri (and a couple of years before
> iPhone was released), I voiced exactly the same concern when I talked about
> the next hurdles for Hebrew in free software:
>
>        http://linmagazine.co.il/node/view/9973
>
> (see the last section there)
>
> Nadav.
>
> --
> Nadav Har'El                        |                  Wednesday, Oct 5
> 2011,
> nyh at math.technion.ac.il
> |-----------------------------------------
> Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |I don't eat snails. I prefer fast
> food.
> http://nadav.harel.org.il           |
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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From Linux-IL at udif.com  Wed Oct  5 15:49:04 2011
From: Linux-IL at udif.com (Udi Finkelstein)
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 15:49:04 +0200
Subject: looking for an embedded linux hw.
In-Reply-To: <CAMUp3wkaoLTQmqWrTTCsTCbGTs1CQvCcKjVZBi436XRcxpbDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMUp3wniaM=bS6DcZVGbD98aLwiEAY_a5ShwXk_9-wXk0dDJEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E8B2E03.9010100@shemesh.biz>
	<CAMUp3wnHsfvwsRJ7DRKHf-=MVF1padXnhVw3gEr4rm=WVchqkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111005081806.GA14382@sapphire.tkos.co.il>
	<CAMUp3wmdk24fztCapz5v8TGyT+DPrsdSipmAwf3XmQ-qLfsQXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E8C2011.4030001@shemesh.biz>
	<CAMUp3wkaoLTQmqWrTTCsTCbGTs1CQvCcKjVZBi436XRcxpbDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHAFOD-yTu1_SNoYY9Rnbu-_YVFw9BMAm15Q12N1ekHjByw7Vw@mail.gmail.com>

If you want to simply add a high-speed connection, you may be better off
with an FTDI chip attached to the USB connection.
I don't know how fast the FT232RL is, but the FT232H has a parallel
interface that is certainly fast enough to get all the USB2 bandwidth.

http://www.ftdichip.com/FTProducts.htm

For prototyping:

FR232RL chip - $3 including shipping
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IC-FT232RL-FTDI-SSOP-28-/260810572949?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb9858495

FT232RL based complete module - $10 incl. shipping
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Arduino-FT232RL-USB-6Pin-Serial-Port-Download-Cable-/180720938343?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a13cead67

FT232H eval module ($20 not including shipping)
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/2398630-mod-usb-hs-ft232h-eval-um232h.html

Udi


2011/10/5 Erez D <erez0001 at gmail.com>

>
>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Shachar Shemesh <shachar at shemesh.biz>wrote:
>
>>  On 10/05/2011 10:28 AM, Erez D wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> The serial baud rates are derived from a clock, which is divided by a
>> divider (and then usually divided again by 4).
>> you can set the baud rate to any tandard one (if supported by hardware).
>> however you can simply supply the divide_by value (if hardware supports
>> that, not all hw does, many usb-serial e.g. pl2303 based , does not support
>> that).
>>
>> I'm not sure what SoC the Sheeva is using, but doesn't it have external
>> memory access pins you can hook your FPGA to? Wouldn't that be much faster
>> than anything a UART will provide (and not be considerably more difficult to
>> implement in FPGA)?
>>
> it uses a marvel SOC (afaik sheevaplug is a marvel refernce design).
> actually i wanted more of a streaming connection then a mem-map one, but
> connecting directly to the dram interface could be a nice idea.
> this would involve creating a dram interface on the fpga, and connecting to
> the dram bus. this would also lessen the amount of dram i can have.
> I guess currently i would stick with the uart solution. if it would be too
> slow, and i would have my own board (currnetly i am using the dockstar), i
> would really consider using the dram interface.
>
> thanks for the nice idea
> erez.
>
>
>> Shachar
>>
>>
>> --
>> Shachar Shemesh
>> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
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From tewner at gmail.com  Thu Oct  6 07:00:27 2011
From: tewner at gmail.com (Michael Tewner)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 07:00:27 +0200
Subject: [OT] Self-employed's office
In-Reply-To: <20110929174817.GA9137@daniel3.local>
References: <20110925014402.GA10126@daniel3.local>
	<20110929174817.GA9137@daniel3.local>
Message-ID: <CAPxava_FzHd8DU8-2Wv86wf5qLkeZGMgm+QH+36GhrRoPe0WPA@mail.gmail.com>

Can you please share the helpful responses?
-Mike

On Thursday, September 29, 2011, Daniel Shahaf <d.s at daniel.shahaf.name>
wrote:
> I got a few replies off-list, one of them in particular seems very
> promising; thanks to all who responded.
>
> Daniel Shahaf wrote on Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 04:44:20 +0300:
>> [ Hopefully this isn't too off-topic for this list. ]
>>
>> I'm located in the Tel-Aviv area.  These days I'm working remotely
>> (under several different hats), but working from home is getting a bit
>> long in the tooth, so I've been wondering what other options I have.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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From erez0001 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  6 09:40:23 2011
From: erez0001 at gmail.com (Erez D)
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:40:23 +0200
Subject: looking for an embedded linux hw.
In-Reply-To: <CAHAFOD-yTu1_SNoYY9Rnbu-_YVFw9BMAm15Q12N1ekHjByw7Vw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMUp3wniaM=bS6DcZVGbD98aLwiEAY_a5ShwXk_9-wXk0dDJEg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E8B2E03.9010100@shemesh.biz>
	<CAMUp3wnHsfvwsRJ7DRKHf-=MVF1padXnhVw3gEr4rm=WVchqkA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111005081806.GA14382@sapphire.tkos.co.il>
	<CAMUp3wmdk24fztCapz5v8TGyT+DPrsdSipmAwf3XmQ-qLfsQXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E8C2011.4030001@shemesh.biz>
	<CAMUp3wkaoLTQmqWrTTCsTCbGTs1CQvCcKjVZBi436XRcxpbDNQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHAFOD-yTu1_SNoYY9Rnbu-_YVFw9BMAm15Q12N1ekHjByw7Vw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMUp3wnSskW1yvXXN1P325x60AKcX=uQZGHP-Ei28LB54FfscQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Udi Finkelstein <Linux-IL at udif.com> wrote:

> If you want to simply add a high-speed connection, you may be better off
> with an FTDI chip attached to the USB connection.
> I don't know how fast the FT232RL is, but the FT232H has a parallel
> interface that is certainly fast enough to get all the USB2 bandwidth.
>
> Thanks,
That may be a good option.

btw,
I had some bad experiance with usb relibility.It could have been bacause of
the ubuntu linux kernel driver, or because of the hub, but after some time
the usb devices were unresponsive and i had to disconnect-reconnect to make
them work again.
I tried different OS (centos) + different hub. it fixed the problem, so i
guess a certain system (ubuntu specific version) had a problem with a
specific hub.
still i do not know what kernet version i am running on the target, and how
stable it is with the specific chip. and because i want MTBF of months or
even years, i am not sure this is the best solution.

however it is tempting ...


anyway, for other uses, i love this chip. solves me the headache of how to
connect simple hardware to be controlled by a pc.
I will surely use it in other applications.

> http://www.ftdichip.com/FTProducts.htm
>
> For prototyping:
>
> FR232RL chip - $3 including shipping
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/IC-FT232RL-FTDI-SSOP-28-/260810572949?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb9858495
>
> FT232RL based complete module - $10 incl. shipping
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Arduino-FT232RL-USB-6Pin-Serial-Port-Download-Cable-/180720938343?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a13cead67
>
> FT232H eval module ($20 not including shipping)
> http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/2398630-mod-usb-hs-ft232h-eval-um232h.html
>
> Udi
>
> thanks for the thorough work.

erez.

>
> 2011/10/5 Erez D <erez0001 at gmail.com>
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Shachar Shemesh <shachar at shemesh.biz>wrote:
>>
>>>  On 10/05/2011 10:28 AM, Erez D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The serial baud rates are derived from a clock, which is divided by a
>>> divider (and then usually divided again by 4).
>>> you can set the baud rate to any tandard one (if supported by hardware).
>>> however you can simply supply the divide_by value (if hardware supports
>>> that, not all hw does, many usb-serial e.g. pl2303 based , does not support
>>> that).
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what SoC the Sheeva is using, but doesn't it have external
>>> memory access pins you can hook your FPGA to? Wouldn't that be much faster
>>> than anything a UART will provide (and not be considerably more difficult to
>>> implement in FPGA)?
>>>
>> it uses a marvel SOC (afaik sheevaplug is a marvel refernce design).
>> actually i wanted more of a streaming connection then a mem-map one, but
>> connecting directly to the dram interface could be a nice idea.
>> this would involve creating a dram interface on the fpga, and connecting
>> to the dram bus. this would also lessen the amount of dram i can have.
>> I guess currently i would stick with the uart solution. if it would be too
>> slow, and i would have my own board (currnetly i am using the dockstar), i
>> would really consider using the dram interface.
>>
>> thanks for the nice idea
>> erez.
>>
>>
>>> Shachar
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Shachar Shemesh
>>> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linux-il mailing list
>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>
>>
>
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From tom123online at gmail.com  Sat Oct  8 15:18:44 2011
From: tom123online at gmail.com (Tom Balazs)
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 09:18:44 -0400
Subject: Find Free Software a New Voice
Message-ID: <CABVFEGAaVQeehVybqxM7f=-t9pZ8Rbr6CKjhbZhEM6P2s5ne2w@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.readwriteweb.com/enterprise/2011/10/why-fsf-founder-richard-stallm.php

"It's time for free software to find a new voice. Once again, Free Software
Foundation founder Richard Stallman is putting his feet firmly in his mouth.
This time, Stallman says that he's glad Steve Jobs is
gone<http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_%28Steve_Jobs%29>.


It's no secret that RMS and Steve Jobs held firmly opposed views when it
comes to software freedom. I didn't expect Stallman to hold a vigil at an
Apple store for Jobs, or even to say much of anything at all. But his
ill-considered response does nothing for the cause of free software, and
actually does a lot of damage.

Stallman and the Free Software Foundation, have long expressed a very public
dislike for Apple and Jobs. They've conducted campaigns against the
iPad<http://www.defectivebydesign.org/ipad>and Stallman has a history
of speaking out about the iPhone and other closed
devices. Though I've often disagreed with the tone and language of
Stallman's commentary on closed devices, he makes good points about software
freedom. But his latest, posthumous, attack on Jobs demonstrates that
Stallman has no business being spokesperson of anything ..." (follow link
for the full text)
http://www.readwriteweb.com/enterprise/2011/10/why-fsf-founder-richard-stallm.php
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From stan.goodman at hashkedim.com  Sat Oct  8 19:34:13 2011
From: stan.goodman at hashkedim.com (Stan Goodman)
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 19:34:13 +0200
Subject: Find Free Software a New Voice
In-Reply-To: <CABVFEGAaVQeehVybqxM7f=-t9pZ8Rbr6CKjhbZhEM6P2s5ne2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABVFEGAaVQeehVybqxM7f=-t9pZ8Rbr6CKjhbZhEM6P2s5ne2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201110081934.13751.stan.goodman@hashkedim.com>

On Saturday 08 October 2011 15:18:44 Tom Balazs wrote:
> http://www.readwriteweb.com/enterprise/2011/10/why-fsf-founder-richar
> d-stallm.php
> 
> "It's time for free software to find a new voice. Once again, Free
> Software Foundation founder Richard Stallman is putting his feet
> firmly in his mouth. This time, Stallman says that he's glad Steve
> Jobs is
> gone<http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_%
> 28Steve_Jobs%29>.
> 
> 
> It's no secret that RMS and Steve Jobs held firmly opposed views when
> it comes to software freedom. I didn't expect Stallman to hold a
> vigil at an Apple store for Jobs, or even to say much of anything at
> all. But his ill-considered response does nothing for the cause of
> free software, and actually does a lot of damage.
> 
> Stallman and the Free Software Foundation, have long expressed a very
> public dislike for Apple and Jobs. They've conducted campaigns
> against the iPad<http://www.defectivebydesign.org/ipad>and Stallman
> has a history of speaking out about the iPhone and other closed
> devices. Though I've often disagreed with the tone and language of
> Stallman's commentary on closed devices, he makes good points about
> software freedom. But his latest, posthumous, attack on Jobs
> demonstrates that Stallman has no business being spokesperson of
> anything ..." (follow link for the full text)
> http://www.readwriteweb.com/enterprise/2011/10/why-fsf-founder-richar
> d-stallm.php


Personally, although Stallman and Jobs have made great contributions to 
computer art and to the culture of  our time, it would be difficult to 
regard either of them as an arguably admirable human being. On the other 
hand, to claim joy that either of them is dead if the worst kind of bad 
taste, and places the one who said it outside the human pale. But it is 
no surprise that Stallman is the one who said this, based on the recent 
mental confursion he exhibited during his visit to the Middle East. The 
man needs psychiatric attention.

-- 
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel


From wordz2u at gmail.com  Sat Oct  8 20:46:04 2011
From: wordz2u at gmail.com (Steve G.)
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 12:46:04 -0600
Subject: Find Free Software a New Voice
In-Reply-To: <CABVFEGAaVQeehVybqxM7f=-t9pZ8Rbr6CKjhbZhEM6P2s5ne2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABVFEGAaVQeehVybqxM7f=-t9pZ8Rbr6CKjhbZhEM6P2s5ne2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJAZ2DT36Eb_5-JkenBCyjcEeZkKZ=WEaHVJ5W29WvU7upd1oA@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe we should start a Facebook group to get rid  of RMS, an open source
Arab Spring or Social Justice movement...

Unfortunately being an idiot is not against the law.

2011/10/8 Tom Balazs <tom123online at gmail.com>

>
> http://www.readwriteweb.com/enterprise/2011/10/why-fsf-founder-richard-stallm.php
>
> "It's time for free software to find a new voice. Once again, Free Software
> Foundation founder Richard Stallman is putting his feet firmly in his mouth.
> This time, Stallman says that he's glad Steve Jobs is gone<http://stallman.org/archives/2011-jul-oct.html#06_October_2011_%28Steve_Jobs%29>.
>
>
> It's no secret that RMS and Steve Jobs held firmly opposed views when it
> comes to software freedom. I didn't expect Stallman to hold a vigil at an
> Apple store for Jobs, or even to say much of anything at all. But his
> ill-considered response does nothing for the cause of free software, and
> actually does a lot of damage.
>
> Stallman and the Free Software Foundation, have long expressed a very
> public dislike for Apple and Jobs. They've conducted campaigns against the
> iPad <http://www.defectivebydesign.org/ipad> and Stallman has a history of
> speaking out about the iPhone and other closed devices. Though I've often
> disagreed with the tone and language of Stallman's commentary on closed
> devices, he makes good points about software freedom. But his latest,
> posthumous, attack on Jobs demonstrates that Stallman has no business being
> spokesperson of anything ..." (follow link for the full text)
>
> http://www.readwriteweb.com/enterprise/2011/10/why-fsf-founder-richard-stallm.php
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>


-- 
Sincerely,

Steve

http://www.words2u.net - GPS points and tracks (mainly in Costa Rica)

http://www.words2u.net/recipes - Recipe collection
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From eli at billauer.co.il  Sat Oct  8 20:21:32 2011
From: eli at billauer.co.il (Eli Billauer)
Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 21:21:32 +0300
Subject: [HAIFUX LECTURE] How to Participate in the Linux Kernel Development
	(and Why) by Baruch Siach
Message-ID: <4E9094AC.1000601@billauer.co.il>

On Monday, October 10th at 18:30, Haifux will gather to hear Baruch 
Siach talk about


     How to Participate in the Linux Kernel Development (and Why)


Abstract

The Linux kernel is one of the largest scale free software projects. 
More than thousand developers contribute code to each kernel release. 
Becoming one of them is not an easy challenge. First you need to 
familiarize yourself with the technical side of kernel development, with 
its unique peculiarities. Then, you need to understand and carry out the 
long, and sometimes painful, process of patch submission. However, the 
reward for this pain is great.

This lecture is a practical introduction to the kernel development 
process. I'll first explain why you (and your employer) should consider 
submitting patches to the mainline kernel. Then, I'll show how this 
process works, and what it takes to get your code into the mainline 
kernel. This lecture is not about the technical side of kernel development.

The intended audience for this lecture is kernel hackers wannabes, and 
those doing kernel development who do not participate (yet) in the 
mainline kernel development.

================================

We meet in Taub (CS Faculty) building, room 6. For instructions see: 
http://www.haifux.org/where.html

Attendance is free, and you are all invited!

================================
Future Haifux talks include:


31/10/2011 Better Performance in Virtualization by Abel Gordon

14/11/2011 GPGPU - Motivation and Architecture by Ofer Rosenberg

28/11/2011 GPGPU - OpenCL by Ofer Rosenberg

12/12/2011 GPGPU - Case studies, Do's and Dont's by Ofer Rosenberg

26/12/2011 GPGPU - Tools and profiling for performance by Ofer Rosenberg


============================================================

We are always interested in hearing your talks and ideas. If you wish to 
give a talk, hold a discussion, or just plan some event Haifux might be 
interested in, please contact us at webmaster at haifux.org


-- 
Web: http://www.billauer.co.il


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From w1 at zak.co.il  Sat Oct  8 21:58:49 2011
From: w1 at zak.co.il (Omer Zak)
Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 21:58:49 +0200
Subject: For people who use the Scheme programming language
Message-ID: <1318103929.3792.44.camel@c4>

Three years ago I developed a library (PyGuile) for invoking Python
modules from Scheme (run under the Guile interpreter) scripts.
Blog articles: http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/category/pyguile/
Download: http://www.zak.co.il/a/itches/pyguile

If you write in Scheme, I'll appreciate if you let me know if and which
additional features in PyGuile would make it useful for you in your
work.

--- Omer


-- 
There is no IGLU Cabal because
My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html



From matan at svgalib.org  Sat Oct  8 23:09:22 2011
From: matan at svgalib.org (Matan Ziv-Av)
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 23:09:22 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Find Free Software a New Voice
In-Reply-To: <CAJAZ2DT36Eb_5-JkenBCyjcEeZkKZ=WEaHVJ5W29WvU7upd1oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABVFEGAaVQeehVybqxM7f=-t9pZ8Rbr6CKjhbZhEM6P2s5ne2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DT36Eb_5-JkenBCyjcEeZkKZ=WEaHVJ5W29WvU7upd1oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1110082308110.12784@matan>

On Sat, 8 Oct 2011, Steve G. wrote:

> Unfortunately being an idiot is not against the law.

Hence this thread.

-- 
Matan Ziv-Av.                         matan at svgalib.org




From stan.goodman at hashkedim.com  Sat Oct  8 23:39:18 2011
From: stan.goodman at hashkedim.com (Stan Goodman)
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 23:39:18 +0200
Subject: Find Free Software a New Voice
In-Reply-To: <CAJAZ2DT36Eb_5-JkenBCyjcEeZkKZ=WEaHVJ5W29WvU7upd1oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABVFEGAaVQeehVybqxM7f=-t9pZ8Rbr6CKjhbZhEM6P2s5ne2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DT36Eb_5-JkenBCyjcEeZkKZ=WEaHVJ5W29WvU7upd1oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201110082339.18589.stan.goodman@hashkedim.com>

On Saturday 08 October 2011 20:46:04 Steve G. wrote:
> Maybe we should start a Facebook group to get rid  of RMS, an open
> source Arab Spring or Social Justice movement...
> 
> Unfortunately being an idiot is not against the law.
> 
> 2011/10/8 Tom Balazs <tom123online at gmail.com>

Nobody has ever suggested prosecuting RMS for his opinions. Just as 
being an idiot is legal, avoiding idiots is also a permissible activity.

-- 
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel


From yba at tkos.co.il  Sat Oct  8 23:47:33 2011
From: yba at tkos.co.il (Jonathan Ben Avraham)
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 23:47:33 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Find Free Software a New Voice
In-Reply-To: <201110082339.18589.stan.goodman@hashkedim.com>
References: <CABVFEGAaVQeehVybqxM7f=-t9pZ8Rbr6CKjhbZhEM6P2s5ne2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DT36Eb_5-JkenBCyjcEeZkKZ=WEaHVJ5W29WvU7upd1oA@mail.gmail.com>
	<201110082339.18589.stan.goodman@hashkedim.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1110082343130.2079@yehudia.tkos.co.il>

Hi Stan, Steve,
I think I mentioned once before, let's think about who *is* worthy to be 
the voice of Open Source rather than who who *isn't*. IMHO, RMS should be 
ignored at this point. He made great contributions in the past, but now 
it's time for a different voice.

  - yba


On Sat, 8 Oct 2011, Stan Goodman wrote:

> Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 23:39:18 +0200
> From: Stan Goodman <stan.goodman at hashkedim.com>
> To: linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> Subject: Re: Find Free Software a New Voice
> 
> On Saturday 08 October 2011 20:46:04 Steve G. wrote:
>> Maybe we should start a Facebook group to get rid  of RMS, an open
>> source Arab Spring or Social Justice movement...
>>
>> Unfortunately being an idiot is not against the law.
>>
>> 2011/10/8 Tom Balazs <tom123online at gmail.com>
>
> Nobody has ever suggested prosecuting RMS for his opinions. Just as
> being an idiot is legal, avoiding idiots is also a permissible activity.
>
>

-- 
  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA    ~. .~   Tk Open Systems
=}------------------------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo------------{=
      - yba at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -


From shachar at shemesh.biz  Sun Oct  9 06:56:45 2011
From: shachar at shemesh.biz (Shachar Shemesh)
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 06:56:45 +0200
Subject: Find Free Software a New Voice
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1110082343130.2079@yehudia.tkos.co.il>
References: <CABVFEGAaVQeehVybqxM7f=-t9pZ8Rbr6CKjhbZhEM6P2s5ne2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DT36Eb_5-JkenBCyjcEeZkKZ=WEaHVJ5W29WvU7upd1oA@mail.gmail.com>
	<201110082339.18589.stan.goodman@hashkedim.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1110082343130.2079@yehudia.tkos.co.il>
Message-ID: <4E91298D.1000209@shemesh.biz>

On 10/08/2011 11:47 PM, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
> Hi Stan, Steve,
> I think I mentioned once before, let's think about who *is* worthy to
> be the voice of Open Source rather than who who *isn't*. IMHO, RMS
> should be ignored at this point. He made great contributions in the
> past, but now it's time for a different voice.
>
>  - yba
>
You sit around discussing the matter as if you are the board of
directors of the "free software" organization. Except there is no such
organization.

We've been through this when we founded Hamakor. We aimed for it to
represent the free software movement in Israel, except this is, of
course, impossible. The free software movement in Israel is composed of
individuals committed to the idea, and they bear no obligation of any
kind to any one. All Hamakor could hope to do was to provide a voice
that the community, by and large, could agree with. I am glad and proud
to say that we succeeded in doing just that, and to a great extent
BECAUSE we were aware that nothing awards us the privileges we were
claiming, and we had to earn it.

There is a process that threatens any successful grass root movement, of
being hijacked by close but non-identical agenda. People were worried
that Microsoft might try to take over Hamakor, but looking back, that
was never a real threat. The real threat, one that will never go away,
is of someone who does not, prima facia, seem alien taking over. Just
like Greenpiece was taken over by the anti-globalization movement (which
is not the same as environmentalizm), and just like Human Rights Watch
was taken over by the anti-Israeli movement (at least in the middle east
section), Hamakor was, is, and shall (hopefully) always will be in
danger of  being taken over by similar but not identical agendas. That
is why I objected to Hamakor being too active in the anti-biometric or,
more recently, the social uprising. It's not that these are not worthy
causes. It's that these are not Hamakor's causes.

With RMS the process is stranger, because rather than have a persona
change that causes this hijacking, this is one man's inability to
distinguish between personal and organizational agendas on the one hand
(such as the Israeli visit fiasco). On the other hand, a personality
attribute that used to be an asset (his drive to do "what's right"
regardless of, well, anything) that turned, due mostly to the fact that
the very movement he founded was so successful, to a liability.

Maybe RMS should be replaced, but replaced with what? You cannot replace
him as head of the FSF. Only the FSF can, and that is, pretty much,
controlled by RMS. You cannot replace him as FOSS's spokesman, as he has
not "held" that position for quite some time (and many of the other
candidates, such as Linus, have turned out to be assholes too, on
occasions).

So we can discuss this matter as much as we want, but we did not give
RMS this position, and we can certainly not take it away.

Shachar

-- 
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com

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From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 08:05:30 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 08:05:30 +0200
Subject: Find Free Software a New Voice
In-Reply-To: <4E91298D.1000209@shemesh.biz>
References: <CABVFEGAaVQeehVybqxM7f=-t9pZ8Rbr6CKjhbZhEM6P2s5ne2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DT36Eb_5-JkenBCyjcEeZkKZ=WEaHVJ5W29WvU7upd1oA@mail.gmail.com>
	<201110082339.18589.stan.goodman@hashkedim.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1110082343130.2079@yehudia.tkos.co.il>
	<4E91298D.1000209@shemesh.biz>
Message-ID: <07FD3B3E-9F5A-450A-8B86-DF2D65FF6121@gmail.com>


On Oct 9, 2011, at 6:56 AM, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
>
> There is a process that threatens any successful grass root  
> movement, of being hijacked by close but non-identical agenda.  
> People were worried that Microsoft might try to take over Hamakor,  
> but looking back, that was never a real threat. The real threat, one  
> that will never go away, is of someone who does not, prima facia,  
> seem alien taking over. Just like Greenpiece was taken over by the  
> anti-globalization movement (which is not the same as  
> environmentalizm), and just like Human Rights Watch was taken over  
> by the anti-Israeli movement (at least in the middle east section),  
> Hamakor was, is, and shall (hopefully) always will be in danger of   
> being taken over by similar but not identical agendas.

Even close to home was the Society for Prevention of Nature in Israel  
(SPNI). It originally was the society for Preservation, but they tried  
to fight a very well financed opponent on a building project. The  
builder had all of his employees, friends, etc join the SPNI and vote  
FOR his project.



> That is why I objected to Hamakor being too active in the anti- 
> biometric or, more recently, the social uprising. It's not that  
> these are not worthy causes. It's that these are not Hamakor's causes.

IMHO a very wise thing to do. (see below)


> With RMS the process is stranger, because rather than have a persona  
> change that causes this hijacking, this is one man's inability to  
> distinguish between personal and organizational agendas on the one  
> hand (such as the Israeli visit fiasco). On the other hand, a  
> personality attribute that used to be an asset (his drive to do  
> "what's right" regardless of, well, anything) that turned, due  
> mostly to the fact that the very movement he founded was so  
> successful, to a liability.

But that's not it. RMS founded the FSF with very specific goals. These  
goals are stated in the incorporation papers (which are on the FSF  
website) and their discussion (also on the website) why they chose the  
exact type of corporation they did.

As for RMS doing "what's right", this goes beyond it. We can argue  
about whether or not Emacs is wonderful, or Emacs is terrible, the GNU  
software model fosters innovation or stifles it, and so on, that's all  
within the scope of the FSF charter.

Once he discusses politics beyond FOSS, he is beyond the charter, and  
therefore out of the scope of the FSF. If he wishes to do so, he can  
do so as a private citizen, but he can not legally do so as President  
of the FSF, which he signed his screeds.

He simply did not know when to quit, and when to not use his position  
in the FSF community to make his voice stand out, where it should not.  
IMHO he is lucky that no one complained to the IRS (or at least it has  
not come out they did YET) and had their tax exempt status revoked,  
and to the Mass. Attorney General to have their incorporation  
rescinded (or whatever you call forcibly unincorporating).

It's not his dedication, but his hubris that was the cause of his, and  
probably will be the cause of the FSF's downfall.

All of the pundits decried the giving of OpenOffice.Org to the BSD  
people instead of the FSF. Not one mentioned that it just happen to  
occur during the middle of the FSF's anti-Israel push, and that Larry  
Ellison is a big supporter of Israel. While RMS was saying that he  
thought Israel mistreated the Palestinian Arabs, Ellison went to  
Sederot and saw what those same Arabs were doing to Israel.

I say this not to start a political discussion, just to point out that  
RMS sat in an office in Boston and made claims he had no way of  
knowing were true or not, while Ellison came and saw.

> Maybe RMS should be replaced, but replaced with what? You cannot  
> replace him as head of the FSF. Only the FSF can, and that is,  
> pretty much, controlled by RMS. You cannot replace him as FOSS's  
> spokesman, as he has not "held" that position for quite some time  
> (and many of the other candidates, such as Linus, have turned out to  
> be assholes too, on occasions).

That's true. The FSF may have to replace him to stay alive, it depends  
upon who RMS upset with his boycott Israel musings, and how much time  
and effort they want to put into acting upon it. For all we know there  
is a huge stack of complaint forms waiting to be read, or none.

Though really the FSF is sort of irrelevant. FOSS is well enough  
known, the GPL around long enough that it works (or maybe even would  
work better if people stopped mucking with it) and so on.

> So we can discuss this matter as much as we want, but we did not  
> give RMS this position, and we can certainly not take it away.


Sure we can. We can ignore him. We can release software under another  
license, not send the FSF money, not pay for RMS to come here to talk,  
and someone else does not attend the talks. In plain English, ignore  
him. If people do ignore him, the FSF funding will dry up, and he'll  
have to get a job. :-)

Geoff.


-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM













From bigrab at zahav.net.il  Sun Oct  9 14:09:17 2011
From: bigrab at zahav.net.il (Barry.R)
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 14:09:17 +0200
Subject: Find Free Software a New Voice
Message-ID: <201110091409.17486.bigrab@zahav.net.il>

> So we can discuss this matter as much as we want, but we did not give
> RMS this position, and we can certainly not take it away.

That may be so, but what many of us want is to do is distance ourselves from RMS' behaviour which 
not only incorporates a partisan political attitude when it comes to this country, (so much for 
the zeitgeist of Free and Open - has it also become another metaphor for hypocrisy because of RMS' 
fingerprints all over it?)  but also a callous insensitive posture regarding a man whom we did not 
know personally but who enriched the lives of many with his creations.
There is a time and place for everything but now is not the time to resort to media practices.
RMS may be intelligent but he is not a mensch.

> Shachar
> 
> --
> Shachar Shemesh
> Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
> http://www.lingnu.com


From guysoft42 at gmail.com  Sun Oct  9 17:42:39 2011
From: guysoft42 at gmail.com (Guy Sheffer)
Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 17:42:39 +0200
Subject: [Fwd: Hebrew L10n of Sugar]
Message-ID: <1318174960.19746.4.camel@localhost>

Anyone in the mood of helping OLPC support Hebrew?
They sent me this:
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Subject: Hebrew L10n of Sugar
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 15:08:14 -0400
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From hetzbh at gmail.com  Wed Oct 12 10:33:47 2011
From: hetzbh at gmail.com (Hetz Ben Hamo)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:33:47 +0200
Subject: looking for a perl programmer
Message-ID: <CAHVqw=jGAeEvsX+SDVTpeQcOKLT-wUUtvoR_YNpqSgH6kWo1RQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I'm looking for a perl programmer who has:
* long time experience with writing perl programs
* knows VMWare's perl SDK well.

Please contact me off the list.

Thanks,
Hetz
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From amos.shapira at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 07:45:47 2011
From: amos.shapira at gmail.com (Amos Shapira)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:45:47 +1100
Subject: looking for a perl programmer
In-Reply-To: <CAHVqw=jGAeEvsX+SDVTpeQcOKLT-wUUtvoR_YNpqSgH6kWo1RQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jGAeEvsX+SDVTpeQcOKLT-wUUtvoR_YNpqSgH6kWo1RQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF9n_WWMRgY+EvXEet6Xy7raE+nRV3OoAfEyoi5Z1fLJb-8s5w@mail.gmail.com>

Have you considered trying to stick to something more cross-platform, like
libvirt?
http://libvirt.org/drvesx.html

It might let you move away from VMware one day at a lower cost, plus might
broaden the set of people who can help you...

--Amos

2011/10/12 Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com>

> Hi,
>
> I'm looking for a perl programmer who has:
> * long time experience with writing perl programs
> * knows VMWare's perl SDK well.
>
> Please contact me off the list.
>
> Thanks,
> Hetz
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
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From linux-il at danielsh.fastmail.net  Thu Oct 13 19:59:59 2011
From: linux-il at danielsh.fastmail.net (Daniel Shahaf)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:59:59 +0200
Subject: [OT] Self-employed's office
In-Reply-To: <CAPxava_FzHd8DU8-2Wv86wf5qLkeZGMgm+QH+36GhrRoPe0WPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110925014402.GA10126@daniel3.local>
	<20110929174817.GA9137@daniel3.local>
	<CAPxava_FzHd8DU8-2Wv86wf5qLkeZGMgm+QH+36GhrRoPe0WPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111013175959.GA846@daniel3.local>

[sorry for delay; re-sending from my exempt-from-moderation address]

Michael Tewner wrote on Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 07:00:27 +0200:
> Can you please share the helpful responses?
> -Mike
> 

I'd be happy to --- with the permission of those who provided them.
I assume they would have included the list in the Cc if they had
intended for the responses to become public...

In any case, I'm BCC'ing the responders, and I'll repeat here the "Any
academic institution or library" suggestion that came to me via several
routes.

Sorry,

Daniel

> On Thursday, September 29, 2011, Daniel Shahaf <d.s at daniel.shahaf.name>
> wrote:
> > I got a few replies off-list, one of them in particular seems very
> > promising; thanks to all who responded.
> >
> > Daniel Shahaf wrote on Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 04:44:20 +0300:
> >> [ Hopefully this isn't too off-topic for this list. ]
> >>
> >> I'm located in the Tel-Aviv area.  These days I'm working remotely
> >> (under several different hats), but working from home is getting a bit
> >> long in the tooth, so I've been wondering what other options I have.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linux-il mailing list
> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >


From ohadlevy at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 21:55:55 2011
From: ohadlevy at gmail.com (Ohad Levy)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 21:55:55 +0200
Subject: looking for a perl programmer
In-Reply-To: <CAF9n_WWMRgY+EvXEet6Xy7raE+nRV3OoAfEyoi5Z1fLJb-8s5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jGAeEvsX+SDVTpeQcOKLT-wUUtvoR_YNpqSgH6kWo1RQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWMRgY+EvXEet6Xy7raE+nRV3OoAfEyoi5Z1fLJb-8s5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACUhpZHq+dc1-n6YAmZ8jaHktCc1_w82h6oWUr5Knv_6bCsG6Q@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/13 Amos Shapira <amos.shapira at gmail.com>:
> Have you considered trying to stick to something more cross-platform, like
> libvirt?
> http://libvirt.org/drvesx.html
>
> It might let you move away from VMware one day at a lower cost, plus might
> broaden the set of people who can help you...
And you can use one of the management tools out there, including webui's.

btw: I would recommend looking at kvm based infrastructure instead of vmware
Ohad
>
> --Amos
>
> 2011/10/12 Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com>
>>
>> Hi,
>> I'm looking for a perl programmer who has:
>> * long time experience with writing perl programs
>> * knows VMWare's perl SDK well.
>> Please contact me off the list.
>> Thanks,
>> Hetz
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linux-il mailing list
>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>


From hetzbh at gmail.com  Thu Oct 13 22:42:32 2011
From: hetzbh at gmail.com (Hetz Ben Hamo)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 22:42:32 +0200
Subject: looking for a perl programmer
In-Reply-To: <CACUhpZHq+dc1-n6YAmZ8jaHktCc1_w82h6oWUr5Knv_6bCsG6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jGAeEvsX+SDVTpeQcOKLT-wUUtvoR_YNpqSgH6kWo1RQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWMRgY+EvXEet6Xy7raE+nRV3OoAfEyoi5Z1fLJb-8s5w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACUhpZHq+dc1-n6YAmZ8jaHktCc1_w82h6oWUr5Knv_6bCsG6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVqw=hsyj41aX0cUQw_DS5ngQmq-+2zC+zv2ixbNrZG1iJW0A@mail.gmail.com>

I thought about it, and checked already libvirt. It's interesting but it
doesn't do what I need (see my blog post: http://benhamo.org/wp/?p=2917) and
it's VMWare driver is sort of "mish-mash" with all it's native-to XML-to
native stuff..

KVM is PITA for hosting business, specially with it's load balancing and
sharing cores/half-cores for clients. IMHO Red Hat has a long way to go
before it can be even compared to ESXI 4.1 (the free version).

Thanks,
Hetz

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Ohad Levy <ohadlevy at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2011/10/13 Amos Shapira <amos.shapira at gmail.com>:
> > Have you considered trying to stick to something more cross-platform,
> like
> > libvirt?
> > http://libvirt.org/drvesx.html
> >
> > It might let you move away from VMware one day at a lower cost, plus
> might
> > broaden the set of people who can help you...
> And you can use one of the management tools out there, including webui's.
>
> btw: I would recommend looking at kvm based infrastructure instead of
> vmware
> Ohad
> >
> > --Amos
> >
> > 2011/10/12 Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com>
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >> I'm looking for a perl programmer who has:
> >> * long time experience with writing perl programs
> >> * knows VMWare's perl SDK well.
> >> Please contact me off the list.
> >> Thanks,
> >> Hetz
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Linux-il mailing list
> >> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> >> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linux-il mailing list
> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >
> >
>



-- 

*?? ?? ???
??-???
*????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????
??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???????? Hulu? NetFlix? Pandora? Google
Voice? ?? ??, ????? ???? <http://vps.net.bz/?p=406>.
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From guy.tet at gmail.com  Fri Oct 14 03:20:30 2011
From: guy.tet at gmail.com (Guy Tetruashvyly)
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 19:20:30 -0600
Subject: Remote Desktop to Display :0
Message-ID: <4E978E5E.7080605@gmail.com>

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From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Fri Oct 14 08:31:11 2011
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 08:31:11 +0200
Subject: Dennis Ritchie Has Passed Away
Message-ID: <20111014083111.4a357c5f@lap.shlomifish.org>

Dennis Ritchie, known as the inventor of the C programming language, and
co-inventor of the original AT&T UNIX operating system has passed away recently:

* http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2011/10/dennis-ritchie/

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie

R. I. P.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
Optimising Code for Speed - http://shlom.in/optimise

If Botticelli were alive today, he?d be working for Vogue.
    ? http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Peter_Ustinov

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .


From amichai at iglu.org.il  Fri Oct 14 14:35:13 2011
From: amichai at iglu.org.il (Amichai Rotman)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:35:13 +0200
Subject: [OT] Self-employed's office
In-Reply-To: <20111013175959.GA846@daniel3.local>
References: <20110925014402.GA10126@daniel3.local>
	<20110929174817.GA9137@daniel3.local>
	<CAPxava_FzHd8DU8-2Wv86wf5qLkeZGMgm+QH+36GhrRoPe0WPA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111013175959.GA846@daniel3.local>
Message-ID: <CAD_ZK66NBae_wMAeOOWSx-aX7dN5ocBuhdwY_3+Dj_9fV9Grgw@mail.gmail.com>

I have a similar problem, and i live in haifa. Would anyone be interested in
starting such a place in Haifa?

-- Amichai Rotman
On Oct 13, 2011 8:03 PM, "Daniel Shahaf" <linux-il at danielsh.fastmail.net>
wrote:

> [sorry for delay; re-sending from my exempt-from-moderation address]
>
> Michael Tewner wrote on Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 07:00:27 +0200:
> > Can you please share the helpful responses?
> > -Mike
> >
>
> I'd be happy to --- with the permission of those who provided them.
> I assume they would have included the list in the Cc if they had
> intended for the responses to become public...
>
> In any case, I'm BCC'ing the responders, and I'll repeat here the "Any
> academic institution or library" suggestion that came to me via several
> routes.
>
> Sorry,
>
> Daniel
>
> > On Thursday, September 29, 2011, Daniel Shahaf <d.s at daniel.shahaf.name>
> > wrote:
> > > I got a few replies off-list, one of them in particular seems very
> > > promising; thanks to all who responded.
> > >
> > > Daniel Shahaf wrote on Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 04:44:20 +0300:
> > >> [ Hopefully this isn't too off-topic for this list. ]
> > >>
> > >> I'm located in the Tel-Aviv area.  These days I'm working remotely
> > >> (under several different hats), but working from home is getting a bit
> > >> long in the tooth, so I've been wondering what other options I have.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Linux-il mailing list
> > > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> > >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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From ohadlevy at gmail.com  Fri Oct 14 14:42:09 2011
From: ohadlevy at gmail.com (Ohad Levy)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:42:09 +0200
Subject: looking for a perl programmer
In-Reply-To: <CAHVqw=hsyj41aX0cUQw_DS5ngQmq-+2zC+zv2ixbNrZG1iJW0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jGAeEvsX+SDVTpeQcOKLT-wUUtvoR_YNpqSgH6kWo1RQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWMRgY+EvXEet6Xy7raE+nRV3OoAfEyoi5Z1fLJb-8s5w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACUhpZHq+dc1-n6YAmZ8jaHktCc1_w82h6oWUr5Knv_6bCsG6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHVqw=hsyj41aX0cUQw_DS5ngQmq-+2zC+zv2ixbNrZG1iJW0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACUhpZEj6SPD4LR8vufWC8gaNnYAFO2BNWA7aOq7QAdSSQm=3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com> wrote:
> I thought about it, and checked already libvirt. It's interesting but it
> doesn't do what I need (see my blog post:?http://benhamo.org/wp/?p=2917) and
> it's VMWare driver is sort of "mish-mash" with all it's native-to XML-to
> native stuff..
> KVM is PITA for hosting business, specially with it's load balancing and
> sharing cores/half-cores for clients. IMHO Red Hat has a long way to go
> before it can be even compared to ESXI 4.1 (the free version).

You might consider using oVirt (http://www.ovirt.org), it would be
officially open sourced by redhat in two weeks time.

Ohad

> Thanks,
> Hetz
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Ohad Levy <ohadlevy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 2011/10/13 Amos Shapira <amos.shapira at gmail.com>:
>> > Have you considered trying to stick to something more cross-platform,
>> > like
>> > libvirt?
>> > http://libvirt.org/drvesx.html
>> >
>> > It might let you move away from VMware one day at a lower cost, plus
>> > might
>> > broaden the set of people who can help you...
>> And you can use one of the management tools out there, including webui's.
>>
>> btw: I would recommend looking at kvm based infrastructure instead of
>> vmware
>> Ohad
>> >
>> > --Amos
>> >
>> > 2011/10/12 Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com>
>> >>
>> >> Hi,
>> >> I'm looking for a perl programmer who has:
>> >> * long time experience with writing perl programs
>> >> * knows VMWare's perl SDK well.
>> >> Please contact me off the list.
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Hetz
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Linux-il mailing list
>> >> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> >> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Linux-il mailing list
>> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> ?? ?? ???
> ??-???
> ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????
> ??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???????? Hulu? NetFlix? Pandora? Google
> Voice? ?? ??, ????? ????.
>


From hetzbh at gmail.com  Fri Oct 14 14:53:24 2011
From: hetzbh at gmail.com (Hetz Ben Hamo)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:53:24 +0200
Subject: looking for a perl programmer
In-Reply-To: <CACUhpZEj6SPD4LR8vufWC8gaNnYAFO2BNWA7aOq7QAdSSQm=3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jGAeEvsX+SDVTpeQcOKLT-wUUtvoR_YNpqSgH6kWo1RQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWMRgY+EvXEet6Xy7raE+nRV3OoAfEyoi5Z1fLJb-8s5w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACUhpZHq+dc1-n6YAmZ8jaHktCc1_w82h6oWUr5Knv_6bCsG6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHVqw=hsyj41aX0cUQw_DS5ngQmq-+2zC+zv2ixbNrZG1iJW0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACUhpZEj6SPD4LR8vufWC8gaNnYAFO2BNWA7aOq7QAdSSQm=3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVqw=hv6Zqs8Z5Fiv2Q3Ms+yVTOCHdjFsJtz+Vdx=V96GcEXg@mail.gmail.com>

Ovirt is good as a management tool (although how much it supports VMWare is
a good question. the project page doesn't mention VMWare at all).
I'm considering libvirt, since I need to use it with a panel (which is why I
wrote this email), and it's totally different scenario: in a corporate, the
user who logins, sees all the machines, which is the last thing that you
want in a hosting business.

Thanks,
Hetz

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Ohad Levy <ohadlevy at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I thought about it, and checked already libvirt. It's interesting but it
> > doesn't do what I need (see my blog post: http://benhamo.org/wp/?p=2917)
> and
> > it's VMWare driver is sort of "mish-mash" with all it's native-to XML-to
> > native stuff..
> > KVM is PITA for hosting business, specially with it's load balancing and
> > sharing cores/half-cores for clients. IMHO Red Hat has a long way to go
> > before it can be even compared to ESXI 4.1 (the free version).
>
> You might consider using oVirt (http://www.ovirt.org), it would be
> officially open sourced by redhat in two weeks time.
>
> Ohad
>
> > Thanks,
> > Hetz
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Ohad Levy <ohadlevy at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> 2011/10/13 Amos Shapira <amos.shapira at gmail.com>:
> >> > Have you considered trying to stick to something more cross-platform,
> >> > like
> >> > libvirt?
> >> > http://libvirt.org/drvesx.html
> >> >
> >> > It might let you move away from VMware one day at a lower cost, plus
> >> > might
> >> > broaden the set of people who can help you...
> >> And you can use one of the management tools out there, including
> webui's.
> >>
> >> btw: I would recommend looking at kvm based infrastructure instead of
> >> vmware
> >> Ohad
> >> >
> >> > --Amos
> >> >
> >> > 2011/10/12 Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com>
> >> >>
> >> >> Hi,
> >> >> I'm looking for a perl programmer who has:
> >> >> * long time experience with writing perl programs
> >> >> * knows VMWare's perl SDK well.
> >> >> Please contact me off the list.
> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >> Hetz
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Linux-il mailing list
> >> >> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> >> >> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Linux-il mailing list
> >> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> >> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > ?? ?? ???
> > ??-???
> > ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????
> > ??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???????? Hulu? NetFlix? Pandora?
> Google
> > Voice? ?? ??, ????? ????.
> >
>



-- 

*?? ?? ???
??-???
*????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????
??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???????? Hulu? NetFlix? Pandora? Google
Voice? ?? ??, ????? ???? <http://vps.net.bz/?p=406>.
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From ohadlevy at gmail.com  Fri Oct 14 16:47:38 2011
From: ohadlevy at gmail.com (Ohad Levy)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 16:47:38 +0200
Subject: looking for a perl programmer
In-Reply-To: <CAHVqw=hv6Zqs8Z5Fiv2Q3Ms+yVTOCHdjFsJtz+Vdx=V96GcEXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jGAeEvsX+SDVTpeQcOKLT-wUUtvoR_YNpqSgH6kWo1RQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWMRgY+EvXEet6Xy7raE+nRV3OoAfEyoi5Z1fLJb-8s5w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACUhpZHq+dc1-n6YAmZ8jaHktCc1_w82h6oWUr5Knv_6bCsG6Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHVqw=hsyj41aX0cUQw_DS5ngQmq-+2zC+zv2ixbNrZG1iJW0A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACUhpZEj6SPD4LR8vufWC8gaNnYAFO2BNWA7aOq7QAdSSQm=3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHVqw=hv6Zqs8Z5Fiv2Q3Ms+yVTOCHdjFsJtz+Vdx=V96GcEXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACUhpZGNB-=nEtGT-iXfU=04ouykf-dHfbkSXJrcXL3Y7KYd+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com> wrote:
> Ovirt is good as a management tool (although how much it supports VMWare is
> a good question. the project page doesn't mention VMWare at all).
> I'm considering libvirt, since I need to use it with a panel (which is why I
> wrote this email), and it's totally different scenario: in a corporate, the
> user who logins, sees all the machines, which is the last thing that you
> want in a hosting business.
afaik, ovirt engine has a power user portal, which only shows that
user guests...
fyi - ovirt works with kvm, not with vmware, making it a complete open
source alternative to vmware.

Ohad
> Thanks,
> Hetz
>
> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Ohad Levy <ohadlevy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I thought about it, and checked already libvirt. It's interesting but it
>> > doesn't do what I need (see my blog post:?http://benhamo.org/wp/?p=2917)
>> > and
>> > it's VMWare driver is sort of "mish-mash" with all it's native-to XML-to
>> > native stuff..
>> > KVM is PITA for hosting business, specially with it's load balancing and
>> > sharing cores/half-cores for clients. IMHO Red Hat has a long way to go
>> > before it can be even compared to ESXI 4.1 (the free version).
>>
>> You might consider using oVirt (http://www.ovirt.org), it would be
>> officially open sourced by redhat in two weeks time.
>>
>> Ohad
>>
>> > Thanks,
>> > Hetz
>> >
>> > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Ohad Levy <ohadlevy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> 2011/10/13 Amos Shapira <amos.shapira at gmail.com>:
>> >> > Have you considered trying to stick to something more cross-platform,
>> >> > like
>> >> > libvirt?
>> >> > http://libvirt.org/drvesx.html
>> >> >
>> >> > It might let you move away from VMware one day at a lower cost, plus
>> >> > might
>> >> > broaden the set of people who can help you...
>> >> And you can use one of the management tools out there, including
>> >> webui's.
>> >>
>> >> btw: I would recommend looking at kvm based infrastructure instead of
>> >> vmware
>> >> Ohad
>> >> >
>> >> > --Amos
>> >> >
>> >> > 2011/10/12 Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hi,
>> >> >> I'm looking for a perl programmer who has:
>> >> >> * long time experience with writing perl programs
>> >> >> * knows VMWare's perl SDK well.
>> >> >> Please contact me off the list.
>> >> >> Thanks,
>> >> >> Hetz
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> Linux-il mailing list
>> >> >> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> >> >> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > Linux-il mailing list
>> >> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> >> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > ?? ?? ???
>> > ??-???
>> > ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????
>> > ??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???????? Hulu? NetFlix? Pandora?
>> > Google
>> > Voice? ?? ??, ????? ????.
>> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> ?? ?? ???
> ??-???
> ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????
> ??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???????? Hulu? NetFlix? Pandora? Google
> Voice? ?? ??, ????? ????.
>


From ilya at total-knowledge.com  Fri Oct 14 18:46:21 2011
From: ilya at total-knowledge.com (Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 09:46:21 -0700
Subject: [OT] Self-employed's office
In-Reply-To: <CAD_ZK66NBae_wMAeOOWSx-aX7dN5ocBuhdwY_3+Dj_9fV9Grgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20110925014402.GA10126@daniel3.local>
	<20110929174817.GA9137@daniel3.local>
	<CAPxava_FzHd8DU8-2Wv86wf5qLkeZGMgm+QH+36GhrRoPe0WPA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111013175959.GA846@daniel3.local>
	<CAD_ZK66NBae_wMAeOOWSx-aX7dN5ocBuhdwY_3+Dj_9fV9Grgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1318610781.1612.0.camel@localhost>

I would be.

  Ilya.

On Fri, 2011-10-14 at 14:35 +0200, Amichai Rotman wrote:
> I have a similar problem, and i live in haifa. Would anyone be interested in
> starting such a place in Haifa?
> 
> -- Amichai Rotman
> On Oct 13, 2011 8:03 PM, "Daniel Shahaf" <linux-il at danielsh.fastmail.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > [sorry for delay; re-sending from my exempt-from-moderation address]
> >
> > Michael Tewner wrote on Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 07:00:27 +0200:
> > > Can you please share the helpful responses?
> > > -Mike
> > >
> >
> > I'd be happy to --- with the permission of those who provided them.
> > I assume they would have included the list in the Cc if they had
> > intended for the responses to become public...
> >
> > In any case, I'm BCC'ing the responders, and I'll repeat here the "Any
> > academic institution or library" suggestion that came to me via several
> > routes.
> >
> > Sorry,
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> > > On Thursday, September 29, 2011, Daniel Shahaf <d.s at daniel.shahaf.name>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I got a few replies off-list, one of them in particular seems very
> > > > promising; thanks to all who responded.
> > > >
> > > > Daniel Shahaf wrote on Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 04:44:20 +0300:
> > > >> [ Hopefully this isn't too off-topic for this list. ]
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm located in the Tel-Aviv area.  These days I'm working remotely
> > > >> (under several different hats), but working from home is getting a bit
> > > >> long in the tooth, so I've been wondering what other options I have.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Linux-il mailing list
> > > > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > > > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> > > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linux-il mailing list
> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il




From dotancohen at gmail.com  Fri Oct 14 22:31:27 2011
From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 22:31:27 +0200
Subject: Android users, please confirm this Hebrew Android bug
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtSC4w6UbRr7XipY_rigbR0T82S3oTOtW6xmHqVQLDUcBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKDXFkPAc6iJNzYUaK40JU8Y6q2312F-z81G9zisYOZ5K=Ywig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtSC4w6UbRr7XipY_rigbR0T82S3oTOtW6xmHqVQLDUcBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKDXFkMnKSMsBtPHUco6y4N2zZ=whq+1RwNzKT0ph3dmr5GcmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 01:14, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Dotan Cohen <dotancohen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> When viewing Hebrew with vowels the letters in a word are written
>> backward ie left to right not right to left.
>> http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=14661
>
> Looks just like it should on Samsung Galaxy S with FW 2.2, build
> number FROYO.JHJPC, kernel 2.6.32.9. Right-to-left, nikud, and
> everything.
>

Oleg, do you have a modified OS or the stock Android from the manufacturer?



-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com


From dotancohen at gmail.com  Fri Oct 14 22:32:13 2011
From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 22:32:13 +0200
Subject: Android users, please confirm this Hebrew Android bug
In-Reply-To: <CAHVqw=gbE7Gdus1+3ZNunGYUUebFWVhX+TcN9mm5FzPu+Rr+Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKDXFkPAc6iJNzYUaK40JU8Y6q2312F-z81G9zisYOZ5K=Ywig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHVqw=gbE7Gdus1+3ZNunGYUUebFWVhX+TcN9mm5FzPu+Rr+Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKDXFkN=PEZLzt9Cq-sSZKQ_jUHxMGv00q7rpVfNqigDW5=KvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 20:13, Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com> wrote:
> Umm, you should upgrade your ROM to Gingerbread IMHO.
> I just used Dolphin browser (which uses the built in browser to render
> pages) to look at Machon Mamre bible pages with all the "nikud" and it looks
> perfect.
> See this screenshot:?http://benhamo.org/dl/screenshot-1316106335756.png
>

Hetz, do you have a modified OS or the stock Android from the manufacturer?


-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com


From w1 at zak.co.il  Sun Oct 16 08:15:44 2011
From: w1 at zak.co.il (Omer Zak)
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 08:15:44 +0200
Subject: Switching a newly-installed PC from Gnome to XFCE?
Message-ID: <1318745744.3877.7.camel@c4>

I made a new installation of Debian Squeeze.
Debian installer, by default, installed Gnome.
I would like to economize on RAM usage, so I installed the packages of
XFCE.

However, after installation, I see in gdm's login screen no way to
switch desktops from Gnome to another desktop (such as KDE or XFCE).  I
remember that there used to be such a dialog in the past.

Currently, in the new installation, the gdm login screen has buttons
only for shutdown options and for turning on accessibility provisions.

Can anyone please remind how to access the desktop switching dialog from
gdm's login screen (if possible at all)?
Which additional package/s do I need to install to get this dialog?

Thanks,
--- Omer Zak


-- 
The volume of a pizza of thickness a and radius z can be described by
the following formula:      pi zz a
My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/

My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
I may be affiliated in any way.
WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html




From amos.shapira at gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 04:17:54 2011
From: amos.shapira at gmail.com (Amos Shapira)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 13:17:54 +1100
Subject: Remote Desktop to Display :0
In-Reply-To: <4E978E5E.7080605@gmail.com>
References: <4E978E5E.7080605@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF9n_WVLTFox58sH25WVXj76dAPzTATLjc4arEFFyruDSmDdLQ@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/14 Guy Tetruashvyly <guy.tet at gmail.com>
>
> Grettings from sunny New-Mexico .
>
> I've been hitting walls on this one for a couple of weeks now, but have not been able to satisfy my will.
>
> Goal : To be able to login ( not share the desktop, but actually claim the session) from? remote locations.
> The best example for this is Microsoft's Remote Desktop Protocol and its client, " Remote Desktop Connection ".
> Here's the shortest summary for a long process I've been through. thank you for reading.

How about teamviewer.com? It's not open source and I don't have too
much experience with it (beyond letting someone control my Linux
desktop remotely for a few minutes) but it might fit the bill.

--Amos


From guy.tet at gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 04:38:57 2011
From: guy.tet at gmail.com (Guy Tetruashvyly)
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 20:38:57 -0600
Subject: Remote Desktop to Display :0
In-Reply-To: <CAF9n_WVLTFox58sH25WVXj76dAPzTATLjc4arEFFyruDSmDdLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4E978E5E.7080605@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WVLTFox58sH25WVXj76dAPzTATLjc4arEFFyruDSmDdLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E9B9541.8090205@gmail.com>

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From tom at tomgoren.com  Mon Oct 17 08:21:00 2011
From: tom at tomgoren.com (Tom Goren)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:21:00 +0200
Subject: Remote Desktop to Display :0
In-Reply-To: <4E9B9541.8090205@gmail.com>
References: <4E978E5E.7080605@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WVLTFox58sH25WVXj76dAPzTATLjc4arEFFyruDSmDdLQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9B9541.8090205@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMOxDiFdzKhX4y4B5v9U0Pmcpqm+HzagnhWG2g0n3qUkSxoYHw@mail.gmail.com>

You mentioned FreeNX but from my experience the proprietary version is still
light years ahead (http://www.nomachine.com/).

It will definitely serve actual desktop sessions as well.

Very low hassle to configure and should work out of the box.

Tom

2011/10/17 Guy Tetruashvyly <guy.tet at gmail.com>

> **
> On 10/16/2011 08:17 PM, Amos Shapira wrote:
>
>  How about teamviewer.com? It's not open source and I don't have too
> much experience with it (beyond letting someone control my Linux
> desktop remotely for a few minutes) but it might fit the bill.
>
> --Amos
>
>
> Greetings Amos,
> Team Viewer will work , but it will not replace or provide a Roaming
> session like efficiency.
> As you remarked - it is great for remote help, but less applicable for fast
> roaming session.
>
> Guy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
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From guy.tet at gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 08:29:12 2011
From: guy.tet at gmail.com (Guy Tetruashvyly)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 00:29:12 -0600
Subject: Remote Desktop to Display :0
In-Reply-To: <CAMOxDiFdzKhX4y4B5v9U0Pmcpqm+HzagnhWG2g0n3qUkSxoYHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4E978E5E.7080605@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WVLTFox58sH25WVXj76dAPzTATLjc4arEFFyruDSmDdLQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9B9541.8090205@gmail.com>
	<CAMOxDiFdzKhX4y4B5v9U0Pmcpqm+HzagnhWG2g0n3qUkSxoYHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E9BCB38.1030604@gmail.com>

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From tom at tomgoren.com  Mon Oct 17 09:16:08 2011
From: tom at tomgoren.com (Tom Goren)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:16:08 +0200
Subject: Remote Desktop to Display :0
In-Reply-To: <4E9BCB38.1030604@gmail.com>
References: <4E978E5E.7080605@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WVLTFox58sH25WVXj76dAPzTATLjc4arEFFyruDSmDdLQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9B9541.8090205@gmail.com>
	<CAMOxDiFdzKhX4y4B5v9U0Pmcpqm+HzagnhWG2g0n3qUkSxoYHw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9BCB38.1030604@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMOxDiGrYzGoJAg-FzVh2DOE8=7WVbPosDReOTWWpxJQTVb+hw@mail.gmail.com>

They have a 'free' edition:

http://www.nomachine.com/select-package.php?os=linux&id=1



On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Guy Tetruashvyly <guy.tet at gmail.com> wrote:

> **
> On 10/17/2011 12:21 AM, Tom Goren wrote
>
>
> You mentioned FreeNX but from my experience the proprietary version is
> still light years ahead (http://www.nomachine.com/).
>
>  It will definitely serve actual desktop sessions as well.
>
>  Very low hassle to configure and should work out of the box.
>
>  Tom
>
>
> Tom, I visited their site a few times before, seeing hoe FreeNX works, I
> can only imaging how good is the the paid for version.
> But, for a small office of say 3-4 PC's running Linux, the cheapest deal I
> found there was for 750 $. Its a hard sell for someone who
> thought that running Linux maybe cost effective.  ( unless *No Machine*has a paid for License per machine that is < 40$ that I'm missing on.
>
> Guy
>
>
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From guy.tet at gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 17:51:04 2011
From: guy.tet at gmail.com (Guy Tetruashvyly)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 09:51:04 -0600
Subject: Remote Desktop to Display :0
In-Reply-To: <CAMOxDiGrYzGoJAg-FzVh2DOE8=7WVbPosDReOTWWpxJQTVb+hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4E978E5E.7080605@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WVLTFox58sH25WVXj76dAPzTATLjc4arEFFyruDSmDdLQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9B9541.8090205@gmail.com>
	<CAMOxDiFdzKhX4y4B5v9U0Pmcpqm+HzagnhWG2g0n3qUkSxoYHw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9BCB38.1030604@gmail.com>
	<CAMOxDiGrYzGoJAg-FzVh2DOE8=7WVbPosDReOTWWpxJQTVb+hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E9C4EE8.3080207@gmail.com>

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From pub at goldshmidt.org  Mon Oct 17 18:29:58 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:29:58 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I have a gcc-related question. Problematic platform is Fedora 15 with
gcc 4.6.1, as well as Fedora 14 with gcc 4.5.1.

I am used to keeping RCS/CVS/SVN keywords (e.g., $Id$) in all my code.
In the case of C/C++ this normally amounts to

static const char foo_src_id[] = "$Id$";

in the source code. For those who have never encountered it: SVN and
friends happily substitute the relevant information for $Id$, and the
information then can be retrieved using ident(1), even from binaries,
libraries, and such - incredibly useful.

Now, put the above line in a C or C++ file, say foo.cc, and do the following:

$ g++ -g -O2 foo.cc -c -o foo.o
$ ident foo.o
foo.o:
     $Id: foo.cc 673 2011-10-17 09:48:11Z oleg $

This works up to and including gcc 4.4, but it does not work with gcc
4.5.1 or gcc 4.6.1 (the ident part does not show any keywords). The
reason seems to be that the optimizer realizes that the static const
is not used and eliminates it (remove -O2 and ident works fine).

I can fool gcc by

static const char foo_src_id[] __attribute__((used)) = "$Id$";

but this is non-portable, and preprocessor acrobatics such as

#if (__GNUC__ >= 4) && (__GNUC_MINOR__ > 4)
#define USED(x) x __attribute__((used))
#else
#define USED(x) x
#endif

static const char USED(foo_src_id[]) = "$Id$";

is incredibly ugly and verbose, IMHO (even with #ifdef __GNUC__ only).
So is any contortion to use the constant somewhere in each file.

Does anyone know of a gcc option that will keep unused static
constants even with optimization or or any other way to keep the
keywords in a portable way? I tried different things that came to mind
(such as -fkeep-static-consts) but they did not work, e.g.,
-fkeep-static-consts emits static consts only when optimization is not
on.

A bonus question: can anyone with Debian/Ubuntu/OpenSuSE/whatever
check whether it works? If it is a RedHat-specific or generic for all
GCCs is important.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From tsnoam at gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 18:59:55 2011
From: tsnoam at gmail.com (Noam Meltzer)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 18:59:55 +0200
Subject: Remote Desktop to Display :0
In-Reply-To: <4E9C4EE8.3080207@gmail.com>
References: <4E978E5E.7080605@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WVLTFox58sH25WVXj76dAPzTATLjc4arEFFyruDSmDdLQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9B9541.8090205@gmail.com>
	<CAMOxDiFdzKhX4y4B5v9U0Pmcpqm+HzagnhWG2g0n3qUkSxoYHw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9BCB38.1030604@gmail.com>
	<CAMOxDiGrYzGoJAg-FzVh2DOE8=7WVbPosDReOTWWpxJQTVb+hw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9C4EE8.3080207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADtAWjDGPMi9BZt-e7WqiCrDaORat_7s6W2098uZzR2pxOojdw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/17 Guy Tetruashvyly <guy.tet at gmail.com>

> **
> On 10/17/2011 01:16 AM, Tom Goren wrote :
>
>  They have a 'free' edition:
>
>  http://www.nomachine.com/select-package.php?os=linux&id=1
>
>
>  That is true, but the free version will act as a terminal server , rather
> then presenting you your "real " desktop.
> (I'm using it right now in order to reply from TB rather than the Gmail
> interface )
>
>
A bit on the edge of this topic,
I've used to work a lot with FreeNX 3+ years ago; Looking now again at
FreeNX it looks like since that time (2008) there was *no* update to FreeNX.
So, I was all WTF? Little google and I found that this is what it looks
like.
There's a new project now called "neatx" which looks like it is the "new"
thing.

http://www.ubuntuupdates.org/posts/freenx-server-is-dead-vive-neatx-server
http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/freenx-knx/2011-October/009401.html
http://code.google.com/p/neatx/

- Noam
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From baruch at tkos.co.il  Mon Oct 17 21:03:01 2011
From: baruch at tkos.co.il (Baruch Siach)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:03:01 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111017190301.GE7761@tarshish>

Hi Oleg,

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 06:29:58PM +0200, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
...
> Now, put the above line in a C or C++ file, say foo.cc, and do the 
> following:
> 
> $ g++ -g -O2 foo.cc -c -o foo.o
> $ ident foo.o
> foo.o:
>      $Id: foo.cc 673 2011-10-17 09:48:11Z oleg $
> 
> This works up to and including gcc 4.4, but it does not work with gcc
> 4.5.1 or gcc 4.6.1 (the ident part does not show any keywords). The
> reason seems to be that the optimizer realizes that the static const
> is not used and eliminates it (remove -O2 and ident works fine).

The -O2, as well as -O and -Os, gcc options enable a set of specific 
optimizations that can each be turned off. The full list is at 
http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.6.1/gcc/Optimize-Options.html. Just go 
over this list and disable each optimization, until you find the one removing 
your static string.

baruch

-- 
                                                     ~. .~   Tk Open Systems
=}------------------------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo------------{=
   - baruch at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -


From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Mon Oct 17 21:09:35 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:09:35 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111017190934.GA27824@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about "Newer gcc swallow version control keywords":
> static const char foo_src_id[] = "$Id$";

I remember many years ago (when I was probably still using SCCS with its %..%
macros, and SCCS's what(1) instead of ident(1)), there was already an argument
on whether what you're trying to do should work, or whether proper compiler
behavior is to optimize these declarations away. In any case, people who used
this trick (rather than comments) *wanted* them not to be optimized away, and
they always were *not* optimized away. I guess that now that changed,
according to your report.

In any case, because there was always a fear that the compiler might optimize
these out, someone invented a new directive, #ident, as in:

#ident "$Id$"

The C preprocessor would pass this statement unchanged to the C compiler
(as it also does with #line), and the C compiler changed it to some static
constant that doesn't get optimized away.
Last time I checked, this worked, but I suggest you give it a shot again.
I think it has been in all C compilers I've seen in the last two decades,
but perhaps it rusted away because of disuse ;-)


> but this is non-portable, and preprocessor acrobatics such as
> 
> #if (__GNUC__ >= 4) && (__GNUC_MINOR__ > 4)
> #define USED(x) x __attribute__((used))
> #else
> #define USED(x) x
> #endif
> 
> static const char USED(foo_src_id[]) = "$Id$";
> 
> is incredibly ugly and verbose

Why is this incredebly ugly? You can even make it nicer by putting in ident.h:
	#if (__GNUC__ >= 4) && (__GNUC_MINOR__ > 4)
	#define USED(x) x __attribute__((used))
	#else
	#define USED(x) x
	#endif
	#define IDENT(x) static const char USED(foo_src_id[]) = x;

and then in each file just do
#include "ident.h"
IDENT("$Id");

Doesn't look that bad...

> (such as -fkeep-static-consts) but they did not work, e.g.,
> -fkeep-static-consts emits static consts only when optimization is not
> on.

Apparently, the optimizer behavior you're reporting and the odd behavior of
-fkeep-static-consts you report is NOT new. Check out this bug report
from 6 (!) years ago:

	http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20319

Ironically, this bug is still marked "NEW" :-)

> check whether it works? If it is a RedHat-specific or generic for all
> GCCs is important.

According to the aforementioned bug report, it has been this way in all
GCCs for over 6 years, if optimization was turned on... I didn't check myself
in years, though.


-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                    Monday, Oct 17 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Committee: A group of people that keeps
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |minutes and wastes hours.


From raziebe at gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 21:23:38 2011
From: raziebe at gmail.com (Raz)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:23:38 +0200
Subject: GIT BEIVRIT
Message-ID: <CAPB=Z-oPMi0j_zQ_SnSRTPhQAqMvqsrd03Lsqex3ikLLzsxRLw@mail.gmail.com>

http://sos-linux.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/sos-linux/LinuxHebrew/gitcourse/

To those who are too lazy to read git-pro in english, I have translated
git-pro important parts
to hebrew.
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From shachar at shemesh.biz  Mon Oct 17 22:26:03 2011
From: shachar at shemesh.biz (Shachar Shemesh)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:26:03 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E9C8F5B.7060601@shemesh.biz>

On 10/17/2011 06:29 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have a gcc-related question. Problematic platform is Fedora 15 with
> gcc 4.6.1, as well as Fedora 14 with gcc 4.5.1.
>
> I am used to keeping RCS/CVS/SVN keywords (e.g., $Id$) in all my code.
> In the case of C/C++ this normally amounts to
>
> static const char foo_src_id[] = "$Id$";
Leaving aside the question of whether that is a good idea - did you try
changing that to:
static const volatile char foo_src_id[] = "$Id$";
?

Shachar


-- 
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com

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From pub at goldshmidt.org  Mon Oct 17 22:21:43 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:21:43 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <20111017190934.GA27824@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111017190934.GA27824@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <m3lisjqsh4.fsf@goldshmidt.org>

"Nadav Har'El" <nyh at math.technion.ac.il> writes:

> In any case, because there was always a fear that the compiler might
> optimize these out, someone invented a new directive, #ident, as in:
>
> #ident "$Id$"

This has always been there, but it has never been standard, AFAIK. It
is not a GCC extension, either. Most preprocessors don't barf on
directives they do not understand, but they may simply ignore #ident
which will lead to the same behaviour that I do not want.

When you say that it has worked for you with all sorts of compilers do
you mean that it actually produced the $Id$ string with ident or that
it didn't break? 

> Why is this incredebly ugly?

Because #including an extra header just for this purpose _is_ ugly,
IMHO (compared to just compiling with an extra option).

> Apparently, the optimizer behavior you're reporting and the odd behavior of
> -fkeep-static-consts you report is NOT new. Check out this bug report
> from 6 (!) years ago:
>
> 	http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20319

I was wondering whether someone would catch my little mischief: this
bug report complains about the same effect in a slightly different
situation. Even with older GCC the $Id$ string is not there with just
-O2, but it is with "-g -O2" (cf. my original posting - I put the
exact command line there for a reason). 

Yes, I agree with the opinion that -fkeep-static-consts should
override optimization (it is more specific), but it has never been the
case (or at least not for a very long time).

Thanks,

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Mon Oct 17 22:23:14 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:23:14 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <20111017190301.GE7761@tarshish>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111017190301.GE7761@tarshish>
Message-ID: <m3hb37qsel.fsf@goldshmidt.org>

Baruch Siach <baruch at tkos.co.il> writes:

> The -O2, as well as -O and -Os, gcc options enable a set of specific
> optimizations that can each be turned off. The full list is at
> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.6.1/gcc/Optimize-Options.html. Just
> go over this list and disable each optimization, until you find the
> one removing your static string.

I didn't go over all of them but over those which sounded like they
could be relevant - before posting.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Mon Oct 17 22:29:43 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:29:43 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <4E9C8F5B.7060601@shemesh.biz>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9C8F5B.7060601@shemesh.biz>
Message-ID: <m3d3dvqs3s.fsf@goldshmidt.org>

Shachar Shemesh <shachar at shemesh.biz> writes:

> Leaving aside the question of whether that is a good idea

This saved my butt enough times in the past that I think it is ;-)

> - did you try
> changing that to:
> static const volatile char foo_src_id[] = "$Id$";

Hmm... "const volatile" hadn't occurred to me before, but I have just
tried it and it did not work.

Thanks!

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From shachar at shemesh.biz  Mon Oct 17 22:47:49 2011
From: shachar at shemesh.biz (Shachar Shemesh)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:47:49 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <m3d3dvqs3s.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9C8F5B.7060601@shemesh.biz> <m3d3dvqs3s.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
Message-ID: <4E9C9475.1040401@shemesh.biz>

On 10/17/2011 10:29 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
>> - did you try
>> changing that to:
>> static const volatile char foo_src_id[] = "$Id$";
> Hmm... "const volatile" hadn't occurred to me before, but I have just
> tried it and it did not work.
Just tested it myself. It does, indeed, not work. I wonder why? Seems
like it SHOULD work. After all, that's what volatile is for, right?

Shachar
> Thanks!
>


-- 
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com

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From pub at goldshmidt.org  Mon Oct 17 22:52:45 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:52:45 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <4E9C9475.1040401@shemesh.biz>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9C8F5B.7060601@shemesh.biz> <m3d3dvqs3s.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
	<4E9C9475.1040401@shemesh.biz>
Message-ID: <m362jnqr1e.fsf@goldshmidt.org>

Shachar Shemesh <shachar at shemesh.biz> writes:

> Just tested it myself. It does, indeed, not work. I wonder why? 
> Seems like it SHOULD work. After all, that's what volatile is for,
> right?

I suspected that const was more important than volatile, but it looks
(after I removed const) that what overrules volatile is the fact that
nothing uses the static variable (or const) - the compiler does not
care that it was declared volatile.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From linux-il at danielsh.fastmail.net  Mon Oct 17 23:03:04 2011
From: linux-il at danielsh.fastmail.net (Daniel Shahaf)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 23:03:04 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <4E9C9475.1040401@shemesh.biz>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E9C8F5B.7060601@shemesh.biz> <m3d3dvqs3s.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
	<4E9C9475.1040401@shemesh.biz>
Message-ID: <20111017210304.GA3368@daniel3.local>

Shachar Shemesh wrote on Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 22:47:49 +0200:
> On 10/17/2011 10:29 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
> >> - did you try
> >> changing that to:
> >> static const volatile char foo_src_id[] = "$Id$";
> > Hmm... "const volatile" hadn't occurred to me before, but I have just
> > tried it and it did not work.
> Just tested it myself. It does, indeed, not work. I wonder why? Seems
> like it SHOULD work. After all, that's what volatile is for, right?

Because it's also static?


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Mon Oct 17 23:04:26 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 23:04:26 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <20111017190934.GA27824@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111017190934.GA27824@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <m31uubqqhx.fsf@goldshmidt.org>


"Nadav Har'El" <nyh at math.technion.ac.il> writes:

> 	#if (__GNUC__ >= 4) && (__GNUC_MINOR__ > 4)
> 	#define USED(x) x __attribute__((used))
> 	#else
> 	#define USED(x) x
> 	#endif
> 	#define IDENT(x) static const char USED(foo_src_id[]) = x;
>
> and then in each file just do
> #include "ident.h"
> IDENT("$Id");

The proper contents of ident.h would actually be

#ifndef _IDENT_H_
#define _IDENT_H_

#if defined(__GNUC__)
#define USED(x) x __attribute__((used))
#else
#define USED(x) x
#endif

#define IDENT(s,x) static const char USED(s[]) = x

#endif

- this is because one would want to use different identifiers in every
file to avoid a) clashes when keywords are used in header files (very
useful: which versions of the headers was this file compiled with?) and
b) possible effects of -fmerge-constants and friends.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From ghioradrori at gmail.com  Mon Oct 17 23:54:19 2011
From: ghioradrori at gmail.com (Ghiora Drori)
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:54:19 -0700
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <m31uubqqhx.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111017190934.GA27824@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<m31uubqqhx.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
Message-ID: <CAFR4KA=rWuGn+p8zmGaXDg2oyPv5DrwGSfdmqaR=D4yBb_wYbQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2005-04/msg01429.html


 I do have three suggestions for you:
>
> 1) The current way to tell the compiler not to throw away
>    apparently-unused data is __attribute__((used)), like this:
>
>       static const char __attribute__((used)) rcs_sccs_id[] =
>       "$Id: @(#)%M% %I% 20%E% %U% copyright 2005 %Q% string1\\ $";



On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org> wrote:

>
> "Nadav Har'El" <nyh at math.technion.ac.il> writes:
>
> >       #if (__GNUC__ >= 4) && (__GNUC_MINOR__ > 4)
> >       #define USED(x) x __attribute__((used))
> >       #else
> >       #define USED(x) x
> >       #endif
> >       #define IDENT(x) static const char USED(foo_src_id[]) = x;
> >
> > and then in each file just do
> > #include "ident.h"
> > IDENT("$Id");
>
> The proper contents of ident.h would actually be
>
> #ifndef _IDENT_H_
> #define _IDENT_H_
>
> #if defined(__GNUC__)
> #define USED(x) x __attribute__((used))
> #else
> #define USED(x) x
> #endif
>
> #define IDENT(s,x) static const char USED(s[]) = x
>
> #endif
>
> - this is because one would want to use different identifiers in every
> file to avoid a) clashes when keywords are used in header files (very
> useful: which versions of the headers was this file compiled with?) and
> b) possible effects of -fmerge-constants and friends.
>
> --
> Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>



-- 
Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be
trapped by dogma -- which is living with the results of other people's
thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner
voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and
intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become.
Everything else is secondary.
Steve Jobs
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From tzafrir at cohens.org.il  Tue Oct 18 06:40:37 2011
From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 04:40:37 +0000
Subject: GIT BEIVRIT
In-Reply-To: <CAPB=Z-oPMi0j_zQ_SnSRTPhQAqMvqsrd03Lsqex3ikLLzsxRLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPB=Z-oPMi0j_zQ_SnSRTPhQAqMvqsrd03Lsqex3ikLLzsxRLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111018044036.GE26917@pear.tzafrir.org.il>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 09:23:38PM +0200, Raz wrote:
> http://sos-linux.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/sos-linux/LinuxHebrew/gitcourse/
> 
> To those who are too lazy to read git-pro in english, I have translated
> git-pro important parts
> to hebrew.

1. Great!

2. But why that choice of version control? :-)


Seriously, though: have you considered an official translation? Looking
at the Arabic translation on the site:
http://progit.org/book/ar/ (or any other unfinished translation) it
points you to clone http://github.com/progit/progit and push your
changes back.

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen         | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il |                    | a Mutt's
tzafrir at cohens.org.il |                    |  best
tzafrir at debian.org    |                    | friend


From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Tue Oct 18 10:58:30 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:58:30 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <m3lisjqsh4.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111017190934.GA27824@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<m3lisjqsh4.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
Message-ID: <20111018085830.GA28531@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about "Re: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords":
> > In any case, because there was always a fear that the compiler might
> > optimize these out, someone invented a new directive, #ident, as in:
> >
> > #ident "$Id$"
> 
> This has always been there, but it has never been standard, AFAIK. It

"Always" is always a relative term, when we're talking about a programming
language (C) invented 40 years ago. I'm pretty sure #ident has indeed been
around for around 20 years. About standardization, you may be right: I just
checked and sadly I can't find "#ident" anywhere in the C99 standard.

But that being said, I wonder if in practice, on actual computers of interest
today, it will work. I just checked on my Fedora 15, Gcc 4.6.1, and it works
well. Sadly, all the dozen other Unix variants to which I used to have access,
have gone the way of the dodo, so I can't check this on any other C compiler.

> is not a GCC extension, either. Most preprocessors don't barf on
> directives they do not understand, but they may simply ignore #ident
> which will lead to the same behaviour that I do not want.

They *may* ignore #ident, but like I said, #ident has been around for ages,
and may actually work on many if not all compilers. Like I said, it does
on gcc. I checked, and it seems it  generates assemly that looks like:

        .ident  "$Id: hello $"

Which I guess GNU AS supports, seeing that the ident string appears in the
object file and in the final executable - even if compiled with -O2.


> When you say that it has worked for you with all sorts of compilers do
> you mean that it actually produced the $Id$ string with ident or that
> it didn't break? 

Whenever I checked, it worked in the sense of generating code.
But I was never a big fan of what(1) and ident(1) like you, so I haven't
checked this in ages.

> I was wondering whether someone would catch my little mischief: this
> bug report complains about the same effect in a slightly different
> situation. Even with older GCC the $Id$ string is not there with just
> -O2, but it is with "-g -O2" (cf. my original posting - I put the
> exact command line there for a reason). 
> 
> Yes, I agree with the opinion that -fkeep-static-consts should
> override optimization (it is more specific), but it has never been the
> case (or at least not for a very long time).

I suggest you add your comments to that bug report, to make it known that
people still care. Apparently, you're the last user (!?) of ident(1), so
make your voice heard :-)

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                   Tuesday, Oct 18 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Unix is user friendly - it's just picky
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |about its friends.


From elazarl at gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 11:16:38 2011
From: elazarl at gmail.com (Elazar Leibovich)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:16:38 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>

I guess that it doesn't apply to libraries, which must include this global
variable.

Excuse the idiotic solution, but can't you just add an option to print it
out?

int main(int argc,char**argv) {if (argc == 2 && strcmp(argv[1],"--ident")
puts(ident);...}

The only trick the optimizer can play here, is inlining puts and the input
string to assembly commands, but I really don't think it can happen in
practice.

It seems like a good idea anyhow, to have a stable way of extracting this
ident string from the executable (what happens for instance if by accident
you have rcsident and rcs_ident? How would you know from the stripped
executable which one to trust?).

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 6:29 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have a gcc-related question. Problematic platform is Fedora 15 with
> gcc 4.6.1, as well as Fedora 14 with gcc 4.5.1.
>
> I am used to keeping RCS/CVS/SVN keywords (e.g., $Id$) in all my code.
> In the case of C/C++ this normally amounts to
>
> static const char foo_src_id[] = "$Id$";
>
> in the source code. For those who have never encountered it: SVN and
> friends happily substitute the relevant information for $Id$, and the
> information then can be retrieved using ident(1), even from binaries,
> libraries, and such - incredibly useful.
>
> Now, put the above line in a C or C++ file, say foo.cc, and do the
> following:
>
> $ g++ -g -O2 foo.cc -c -o foo.o
> $ ident foo.o
> foo.o:
>     $Id: foo.cc 673 2011-10-17 09:48:11Z oleg $
>
> This works up to and including gcc 4.4, but it does not work with gcc
> 4.5.1 or gcc 4.6.1 (the ident part does not show any keywords). The
> reason seems to be that the optimizer realizes that the static const
> is not used and eliminates it (remove -O2 and ident works fine).
>
> I can fool gcc by
>
> static const char foo_src_id[] __attribute__((used)) = "$Id$";
>
> but this is non-portable, and preprocessor acrobatics such as
>
> #if (__GNUC__ >= 4) && (__GNUC_MINOR__ > 4)
> #define USED(x) x __attribute__((used))
> #else
> #define USED(x) x
> #endif
>
> static const char USED(foo_src_id[]) = "$Id$";
>
> is incredibly ugly and verbose, IMHO (even with #ifdef __GNUC__ only).
> So is any contortion to use the constant somewhere in each file.
>
> Does anyone know of a gcc option that will keep unused static
> constants even with optimization or or any other way to keep the
> keywords in a portable way? I tried different things that came to mind
> (such as -fkeep-static-consts) but they did not work, e.g.,
> -fkeep-static-consts emits static consts only when optimization is not
> on.
>
> A bonus question: can anyone with Debian/Ubuntu/OpenSuSE/whatever
> check whether it works? If it is a RedHat-specific or generic for all
> GCCs is important.
>
> --
> Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Tue Oct 18 11:50:26 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 11:50:26 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Elazar Leibovich wrote about "Re: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords":
> Excuse the idiotic solution, but can't you just add an option to print it
> out?
> 
> int main(int argc,char**argv) {if (argc == 2 && strcmp(argv[1],"--ident")
> puts(ident);...}

The point in Oleg's trick (which is not Oleg's invention - it has been in
use for decades) is to be able to tell not just a single version number for
the executable (your "--ident" is basically the same as "--version" supported
by many programs), but rather to be able to tell the exact version of each
and every source code file which participated in creating this executable.
You run "ident" on the executable, and get a list of dozens (or thousands)
of source file names and their exact version numbers and dates. This could
be useful if you have a lot of versions of your code running around, and
you don't remember how exactly each executable was generated.

This trick was particularly useful in the days of SCCS and RCS, which work
separately on each file, and each file has a separate version number.

One reason that nobody really cares about this trick any more is that it has
become MUCH LESS IMPORTANT on modern version control systems, e.g., Subversion
or Git, where there is a single version number (or version hash) for the
entire project, not one per file. So if you just include this single
version number in your main() - as in your example - it is enough to find
exactly which version of each source file went into this executable.
If your project's result doesn't have a main() (e.g., it is a library), just
find another way to stick this version number - e.g., provide a function
or global variable (which won't be optimized out) containing this version
number - and stick it in the same object file as your library's most important
function (so it always gets included by users of your library).

> It seems like a good idea anyhow, to have a stable way of extracting this
> ident string from the executable (what happens for instance if by accident
> you have rcsident and rcs_ident? How would you know from the stripped
> executable which one to trust?).

The idea with ident(1) is that the content of the string, not the variable
name holding it, has a recognizeable structure. In particular, it looks like
this: $Id: something $ - with the word "something" replaced by anything you
wish. ident(1) looks for such strings in any file you give it - whether it
is an executable, source code, or whatever, and prints them.
what(1), SCCS's precursor of RCS's ident(1), used a different string format
for the same purpose - it looked like "@(#) something" (with the string
typically ending with a null). Nobody in their right mind still uses SCCS
today, but what(1) still works, if you wish to use strings of this format
in your executables to mark them.

Nadav.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                   Tuesday, Oct 18 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Windows-2000/Professional isn't.
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |


From elazarl at gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 12:11:56 2011
From: elazarl at gmail.com (Elazar Leibovich)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:11:56 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Nadav Har'El <nyh at math.technion.ac.il>wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Elazar Leibovich wrote about "Re: Newer gcc swallow
> version control keywords":
> > Excuse the idiotic solution, but can't you just add an option to print it
> > out?
> >
> > int main(int argc,char**argv) {if (argc == 2 && strcmp(argv[1],"--ident")
> > puts(ident);...}
>
> The point in Oleg's trick (which is not Oleg's invention - it has been in
> use for decades) is to be able to tell not just a single version number for
> the executable (your "--ident" is basically the same as "--version"
> supported
> by many programs), but rather to be able to tell the exact version of each
> and every source code file which participated in creating this executable.
> You run "ident" on the executable, and get a list of dozens (or thousands)
> of source file names and their exact version numbers and dates. This could
> be useful if you have a lot of versions of your code running around, and
> you don't remember how exactly each executable was generated.
>

I didn't understand that, but anyhow. Same idea could apply.

For C++:
main.cc:
vector<string> __files;
int main(int argc,char**argv) {if (argc == 2 && string(argv)=="--ident")
{for (auto file:__files) cout << file << "\n";exit(0);}}

fileversion.h:
class FileVersion {FileVersion(const string& v){__files.push_back(v);}};

foo.cc:
static const FileVersion foo("$id$");

With some macro trickery you might be able to get .init-like behaviour for
C. (If you're willing to preprocess the C files with another utility, like
you do to replace the $Id$ strings, it's actually not hard at all).

This way, it's not ad-hoc, but a documented working way to get whatever you
want in the executable.

(I perfectly agree with you that today it's less relevant, but I'm taking
Oleg's stance for the sake of the discussion)


>
>
> > It seems like a good idea anyhow, to have a stable way of extracting this
> > ident string from the executable (what happens for instance if by
> accident
> > you have rcsident and rcs_ident? How would you know from the stripped
> > executable which one to trust?).
>
> The idea with ident(1) is that the content of the string, not the variable
> name holding it, has a recognizeable structure. In particular, it looks
> like
> this: $Id: something $ - with the word "something" replaced by anything you
> wish. ident(1) looks for such strings in any file you give it - whether it
> is an executable, source code, or whatever, and prints them.
>

I understood that, and it's still unstable. Since if some young team member
not aware of the $Id: trick, will write:
    log("$Id: %d $Name: %s\n",id,name)
ident will return garbage.
If you have documented way to get the ident strings, it's more stable.
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From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct 18 12:41:02 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:41:02 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtTwmx22RTk1=tVf-vmVFFcK72OhT2UKe0m7+RDkFDHidQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Elazar Leibovich <elazarl at gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess that it doesn't apply to libraries, which must include this global
> variable.

The whole point is that the constants are not global but have file
scope. Therefore the optimizer can figure out they are not really
used.

> Excuse the idiotic solution, but can't you just add an option to print it
> out?
> int main(int argc,char**argv) {if (argc == 2 && strcmp(argv[1],"--ident")
> puts(ident);...}

This is fine for the main() routine of a regular application. What
about other files? Headers? What about daemons that have no I/O?

> It seems like a good idea anyhow, to have a stable way of extracting this
> ident string from the executable

That's the function of ident(1) - and that's what is not working
because the compiler eats the strings.

> (what happens for instance if by accident
> you have rcsident and rcs_ident? How would you know from the stripped
> executable which one to trust?).

It's the version control system's function to expand the keywords with
the right data - if I have multiple strings they will be consistent.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | oleg at goldshmidt.org


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct 18 12:47:26 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:47:26 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtSR7-SrCK6wQQMAiQcrHtn8Y_eLUWtPpMZoWoP8=2J9Zw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Nadav Har'El <nyh at math.technion.ac.il> wrote:

> One reason that nobody really cares about this trick any more is that it has
> become MUCH LESS IMPORTANT on modern version control systems, e.g., Subversion
> or Git, where there is a single version number (or version hash) for the
> entire project, not one per file.

This is an idealistic argument that breaks down in many real-world
situations. Some examples include build and release processes parts of
which are done manually by copying files around, developers forgetting
to check in a file or two, and (binary) patches/updates sent to
individual customers one by one. The real world is, unfortunately, not
entirely blissful.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | oleg at goldshmidt.org


From elazarl at gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 12:49:28 2011
From: elazarl at gmail.com (Elazar Leibovich)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:49:28 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtTwmx22RTk1=tVf-vmVFFcK72OhT2UKe0m7+RDkFDHidQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtTwmx22RTk1=tVf-vmVFFcK72OhT2UKe0m7+RDkFDHidQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHNTFmJsUTJEwjco8tPoXWO-oA4YCTe9rkAE45Cm5Ojgt1vQzg@mail.gmail.com>

First, please see my last email to Nadav, which discuss a lot of the
details.

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org>wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Elazar Leibovich <elazarl at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I guess that it doesn't apply to libraries, which must include this
> global
> > variable.
>
> The whole point is that the constants are not global but have file
> scope. Therefore the optimizer can figure out they are not really
> used.
>

But you shouldn't care that they're having a file scope, do you?
So I think it's an OK solution to allow them have application scope. Am I
correct? See my C++ implementation in the reply to Nadav.


>
> > Excuse the idiotic solution, but can't you just add an option to print it
> > out?
> > int main(int argc,char**argv) {if (argc == 2 && strcmp(argv[1],"--ident")
> > puts(ident);...}
>
> This is fine for the main() routine of a regular application. What
> about other files? Headers? What about daemons that have no I/O?
>

It doesn't matter. The daemon will still not have output unless invoked with
"--ident". You shouldn't care about that, should you?
In case of libraries (.o, .a, .so), I think that if you expose the const
char* variable, the optimizer can't eat it away. How would it knows no user
of the library uses it?


>
> > It seems like a good idea anyhow, to have a stable way of extracting this
> > ident string from the executable
>
> That's the function of ident(1) - and that's what is not working
> because the compiler eats the strings.
>

See my reply to Nadav. I meant unstable because of "$Id: %d, $Name: %s" will
also be printed.


>
> > (what happens for instance if by accident
> > you have rcsident and rcs_ident? How would you know from the stripped
> > executable which one to trust?).
>
> It's the version control system's function to expand the keywords with
> the right data - if I have multiple strings they will be consistent.
>

My bad, I thought it's supposed to be an application scope version string.
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From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct 18 12:50:29 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:50:29 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtR0=dBiTRKnp+WekVzEfWNvQpVOFXwxw77t=eKQOfAzEQ@mail.gmail.com>

> I understood that, and it's still unstable. Since if some young team member
> not aware of the $Id: trick, will write:
> ? ? log("$Id: %d $Name: %s\n",id,name)
> ident will return garbage.

Someone may alter keyword expansions just before the build, too.

> If you have documented way to get the ident strings, it's more stable.

The whole point is to have these strings everywhere, otherwise they
are not very useful. This means the whole development team is aware of
and uses the convention.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | oleg at goldshmidt.org


From elazarl at gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 12:57:49 2011
From: elazarl at gmail.com (Elazar Leibovich)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:57:49 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtR0=dBiTRKnp+WekVzEfWNvQpVOFXwxw77t=eKQOfAzEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtR0=dBiTRKnp+WekVzEfWNvQpVOFXwxw77t=eKQOfAzEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHNTFmKKUkTfA5FQDM8KpVKakNL-51Qmymc5QkmNPnFZrTg+ug@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org>wrote:

> > I understood that, and it's still unstable. Since if some young team
> member
> > not aware of the $Id: trick, will write:
> >     log("$Id: %d $Name: %s\n",id,name)
> > ident will return garbage.
>
> Someone may alter keyword expansions just before the build, too.
>

I'm not sure I understand your comment. Are you telling that this is
unlikely? I agree, this is not a very big point.

Another reason it's more stable, is, that it never allow the optimizer to
mess with your ident strings.
Any conforming compiler MUST let you see all files used in the executable.


>
> > If you have documented way to get the ident strings, it's more stable.
>
> The whole point is to have these strings everywhere, otherwise they
> are not very useful. This means the whole development team is aware of
> and uses the convention.
>

I didn't understand how, eg, my C++ scheme don't work. I think it should
work even if you're including the $Id$ strings in the headers files.
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From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct 18 13:50:30 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:50:30 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAHNTFmKKUkTfA5FQDM8KpVKakNL-51Qmymc5QkmNPnFZrTg+ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtR0=dBiTRKnp+WekVzEfWNvQpVOFXwxw77t=eKQOfAzEQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFmKKUkTfA5FQDM8KpVKakNL-51Qmymc5QkmNPnFZrTg+ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtSj+kVfBVeFjyHwThVQoB7QA5VtWBgozAF21UuDgBC0zg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Elazar Leibovich <elazarl at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:50 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Someone may alter keyword expansions just before the build, too.
>
> I'm not sure I understand your comment. Are you telling that this is
> unlikely? I agree, this is not a very big point.

I am saying that protecting against someone who may modify a keyword
expansion or create his own string of a similar format is not a big
issue.

> I didn't understand how, eg, my C++ scheme don't work. I think it should
> work even if you're including the $Id$ strings in the headers files.

Apart from the fact that you assume that main.cc is mine (what if my
product is a library?), depends on a whole lot of things I wouldn't
necessarily need for any other purpose, makes the strings global and
mutable, and won't pick up, e.g., the case of wrong header I mentioned
before (I checked)?

This is a good idea in general, but it's not really an improvement.
The trusted old scheme has all the needed properties and if gcc had an
option to disable this particular kind of optimization selectively I
wouldn't have a problem.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Tue Oct 18 14:25:54 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:25:54 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111018122554.GA4455@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Elazar Leibovich wrote about "Re: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords":
> fileversion.h:
> class FileVersion {FileVersion(const string& v){__files.push_back(v);}};
> 
> foo.cc:
> static const FileVersion foo("$id$");

Well, basically you're showing that unlike C where a static constant that
is never used can be optimized out, in C++ even a static constant that is
never used can NOT, and therefore will not, be optimized out, because its
constructor could have any unknown side-effects (in your example, writing
to a global vector). This is interesting. But Oleg's question was about C,
and unfortunately he showed that in his case, the compiler does optimize
his constants out (if he uses -O2).

> With some macro trickery you might be able to get .init-like behaviour for
> C. (If you're willing to preprocess the C files with another utility, like
> you do to replace the $Id$ strings, it's actually not hard at all).
> 
> This way, it's not ad-hoc, but a documented working way to get whatever you
> want in the executable.

What are you talking about, "#ident"? Indeed, it's not ad-hoc and has existed
for ages. But Oleg noted that it's not part of the C standard, and indeed I
checked and it isn't. But it's still possible that all common compilers
nowadays support it. Definitely all versions of gcc support it.

> I understood that, and it's still unstable. Since if some young team member
> not aware of the $Id: trick, will write:
>     log("$Id: %d $Name: %s\n",id,name)
> ident will return garbage.
> If you have documented way to get the ident strings, it's more stable.

The idea of the "$Id: " (RCS) or "@(#) " (SCCS) prefixes is that nobody
can accidentally write them by mistake. Why would a young team member use
it incorrectly? Either you would use it (in which case you know what you're
doing) or you won't. Typically coding conventions will specify that you use
it - correctly - on every source file.


-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                   Tuesday, Oct 18 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Vote, n.: A person's right to make a fool
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |of himself and a wreck of his country.


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct 18 14:56:39 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 14:56:39 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <20111018122554.GA4455@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018122554.GA4455@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtTpWzqByDQvTJdp5CjzTFfxk_jjSUqNSDHDqEobpt+ShQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Nadav Har'El <nyh at math.technion.ac.il> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Elazar Leibovich wrote about "Re: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords":
>> fileversion.h:
>> class FileVersion {FileVersion(const string& v){__files.push_back(v);}};
>>
>> foo.cc:
>> static const FileVersion foo("$id$");
>
> Well, basically you're showing that unlike C where a static constant that
> is never used can be optimized out, in C++ even a static constant that is
> never used can NOT, and therefore will not, be optimized out, because its
> constructor could have any unknown side-effects (in your example, writing
> to a global vector). This is interesting.

No, no, it is optimized out - Elazar tried to make a global non-static
(non-file-scope) variable (non-constant) that *is* used (by the main()
routine - and may be used, including modification, by anyone else.
Apart from that the only difference between C and C++ is that in C++
you can write a relatively simple constructor code (while dragging
stuff like <vector< and <string> and possibly <algorithm> in) that
will insert a reference into a global container.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Tue Oct 18 15:14:18 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:14:18 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtTpWzqByDQvTJdp5CjzTFfxk_jjSUqNSDHDqEobpt+ShQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018122554.GA4455@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAM+3FtTpWzqByDQvTJdp5CjzTFfxk_jjSUqNSDHDqEobpt+ShQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111018131418.GA7217@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about "Re: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords":
> No, no, it is optimized out - Elazar tried to make a global non-static
> (non-file-scope) variable (non-constant) that *is* used (by the main()
> routine - and may be used, including modification, by anyone else.
> Apart from that the only difference between C and C++ is that in C++
> you can write a relatively simple constructor code (while dragging
> stuff like <vector< and <string> and possibly <algorithm> in) that
> will insert a reference into a global container.

I understood his intention differently. He used his "trick" not just in main,
but also in every file in his example.

Did you actually check this in C++? It seems to me like in C++, you cannot
"optimize out" (elliminate the construction of code) unused static const
variables whose type have a constructor, because this constructor can
basically do *anything*, and this code might be necessary even if the object
itself is never used.

In my opinion, if gcc does optimize out unused static const variables that
have a constructor with side effects, then it is making a mistake. I didn't
check if that actually happens. But in any case your original question was
about C, not C++.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                   Tuesday, Oct 18 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |I'm experiencing both amnesia and deja
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |vu. I think I've forgotten this before!


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct 18 15:29:21 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:29:21 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <20111018131418.GA7217@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018122554.GA4455@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAM+3FtTpWzqByDQvTJdp5CjzTFfxk_jjSUqNSDHDqEobpt+ShQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018131418.GA7217@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtQuhNrDmrBcPNHKr2fhKkHSGEFm6KMiR1oQhiih6Xm2Wg@mail.gmail.com>

> I understood his intention differently. He used his "trick" not just in main,
> but also in every file in his example.

Yes, it does  not matter. As I said, he adds an attempt to *refer* to
the global variable in main() to make it "used".

> Did you actually check this in C++?

Yes.

> But in any case your original question was
> about C, not C++.

It was about C++. C and C++ compilers behave the same.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | oleg at goldshmidt.org


From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Tue Oct 18 16:04:48 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:04:48 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtQuhNrDmrBcPNHKr2fhKkHSGEFm6KMiR1oQhiih6Xm2Wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018122554.GA4455@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAM+3FtTpWzqByDQvTJdp5CjzTFfxk_jjSUqNSDHDqEobpt+ShQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018131418.GA7217@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAM+3FtQuhNrDmrBcPNHKr2fhKkHSGEFm6KMiR1oQhiih6Xm2Wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111018140448.GA8616@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about "Re: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords":
> It was about C++. C and C++ compilers behave the same.

I was very surprised to discover that this is indeed the case. I think this
is a BUG. For example, consider this C++ program:

	#include <cstdio>
	class Ident {
	public:
		Ident(const char *ident){
			// This constructor prints a message!
			printf("yo\n");
		}
	};

	static Ident id("$Id: hello $");

	main(){
		printf("hello\n");
	}


If you compile it with g++ (without optimization), the object id gets
instanciated, and when you run the program you see the message "yo" first,
before "hello". But, if you compile it with g++ -O2, id gets optimized out
and its constructor never runs - and you never see the "yo" message.

So basically, compiling with -O2 changes the *behavior*, not just the
*performance*, of the code. I don't know how this cannot be called a bug?

But unfortunately, whether this is to be called a "bug" doesn't really
help you :(

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                   Tuesday, Oct 18 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |This '|' is not a pipe.
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct 18 16:24:25 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 16:24:25 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <20111018140448.GA8616@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018122554.GA4455@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAM+3FtTpWzqByDQvTJdp5CjzTFfxk_jjSUqNSDHDqEobpt+ShQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018131418.GA7217@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAM+3FtQuhNrDmrBcPNHKr2fhKkHSGEFm6KMiR1oQhiih6Xm2Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018140448.GA8616@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtQczxHWzvD1zoR+NQjWYYJXEtF=zUgJarMtRYrWfQnFqQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Nadav Har'El <nyh at math.technion.ac.il> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about "Re: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords":
>> It was about C++. C and C++ compilers behave the same.
>
> I was very surprised to discover that this is indeed the case. I think this
> is a BUG. For example, consider this C++ program:
>
> ? ? ? ?#include <cstdio>
> ? ? ? ?class Ident {
> ? ? ? ?public:
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Ident(const char *ident){
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?// This constructor prints a message!
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?printf("yo\n");
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?}
> ? ? ? ?};
>
> ? ? ? ?static Ident id("$Id: hello $");
>
> ? ? ? ?main(){
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?printf("hello\n");
> ? ? ? ?}
>
>
> If you compile it with g++ (without optimization), the object id gets
> instanciated, and when you run the program you see the message "yo" first,
> before "hello". But, if you compile it with g++ -O2, id gets optimized out
> and its constructor never runs - and you never see the "yo" message.
>
> So basically, compiling with -O2 changes the *behavior*, not just the
> *performance*, of the code. I don't know how this cannot be called a bug?

Actually, it works fine for me with or without  -O2, with g++ 4.6.1 on
F15. What am I doing wrong? ;-)

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Tue Oct 18 17:58:49 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 17:58:49 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <20111018140448.GA8616@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018122554.GA4455@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAM+3FtTpWzqByDQvTJdp5CjzTFfxk_jjSUqNSDHDqEobpt+ShQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018131418.GA7217@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAM+3FtQuhNrDmrBcPNHKr2fhKkHSGEFm6KMiR1oQhiih6Xm2Wg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018140448.GA8616@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <20111018155849.GA14509@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Nadav Har'El wrote about "Re: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords":
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about "Re: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords":
> > It was about C++. C and C++ compilers behave the same.
> 
> I was very surprised to discover that this is indeed the case.

I was originally right, and my last statement was wrong - the constructor
DOES matter. I probably wasn't paying attention when I ran my previous
test. Actually, I checked again, and constructor does cause the unused
static object NOT to be optimized out.

In the following example, the "id" object is not optimized out, just as
I thought. You see "yo" in the printout, and ident(1) shows the ident string
you wanted, even with -O2. If you're using C++, and are reluctant to use
__attribute__((used)) because it's not standard, how about using this trick?

BTW, unfortunately, you need the "global" below, because if Ident's constructor
doesn't read its argument, the optimizer ends up optimizing away the string
constant given to it as argument! Instead of using a global variable, you can
probably consider doing other things with the argument which the optimizer
considers as using it.

#include <cstdio>
extern const char *global;
class Ident {
public:
	Ident(const char *ident){
		// We want it to touch the ident parameter, so the caller
		// doesn't think its ignored and can be optimized out.
		global=ident;
		printf("yo\n");
	}
};

static Ident id("$Id: hello $");

main(){
	printf("hello\n");
}

// Put this in a single file, probably main.cc
const char *global;



-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                   Tuesday, Oct 18 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Unlike Microsoft, a restaurant would not
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |charge me for food with a bug!


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct 18 18:04:08 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 18:04:08 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <m3lisjqsh4.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111017190934.GA27824@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<m3lisjqsh4.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtR8OmRG4cfw9hi5v_rzy=di+sSmCJAhKujYq6=-M+mE_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org> wrote:
> "Nadav Har'El" <nyh at math.technion.ac.il> writes:
>
>> In any case, because there was always a fear that the compiler might
>> optimize these out, someone invented a new directive, #ident, as in:
>>
>> #ident "$Id$"
>
> This has always been there, but it has never been standard, AFAIK. It
> is not a GCC extension, either. Most preprocessors don't barf on
> directives they do not understand, but they may simply ignore #ident
> which will lead to the same behaviour that I do not want.

Just to make things more interesting, it looks like MS Visual Studio
2010 ignores #ident, warns about it, and suggests

#pragma comment(exestr,"$Id$")

instead, which works. It also emits nothing for a static const char
foo[] = "$Id$" in either Release or Debug mode.

Luckily, it seems to provide __pragma() which should be the same as
_Pragma and can be hidden in preprocessor macros.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct 18 21:04:51 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 21:04:51 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAHNTFmJsUTJEwjco8tPoXWO-oA4YCTe9rkAE45Cm5Ojgt1vQzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtTwmx22RTk1=tVf-vmVFFcK72OhT2UKe0m7+RDkFDHidQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFmJsUTJEwjco8tPoXWO-oA4YCTe9rkAE45Cm5Ojgt1vQzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtRS--Qt8YBDjWs_GQ0OfPPtKq2a+04bWsaG9bMvaYndxA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Elazar Leibovich <elazarl at gmail.com> wrote:

> But you shouldn't care that they're having a file scope, do you?

Of course I do. Just as one example: suppose that this/dir/foo.c and
that/other/module/bar.c both #include "xyzzy.h". I want to catch a
build system bug that takes the header from two different places.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From wickedpheonix at gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 21:36:07 2011
From: wickedpheonix at gmail.com (Ari Becker)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:36:07 -0700
Subject: Switching a newly-installed PC from Gnome to XFCE?
In-Reply-To: <1318745744.3877.7.camel@c4>
References: <1318745744.3877.7.camel@c4>
Message-ID: <CAK2xwaccH-tAba-+hFApyCCv+krPS5TCpWwOJVzg9D-xkhUYbQ@mail.gmail.com>

If you don't want to use GNOME then you should remove the GNOME and GDM
packages.

Try installing SLiM instead as a login manager for XFCE.
Decent<https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SLiM>
 introductions <http://slim.berlios.de/index.php> are available, as is
the Debian
package information <http://packages.debian.org/sid/slim>. Just remember to
edit your /etc/inittab appropriately, i.e. make sure you boot to run-level 5
and load slim:

x:5:respawn:/usr/bin/slim >& /dev/null (copy-pasted from Slim
documentation).

so that you don't install slim and end up booting gdm anyways.

-Ari Becker

On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 11:15 PM, Omer Zak <w1 at zak.co.il> wrote:

> I made a new installation of Debian Squeeze.
> Debian installer, by default, installed Gnome.
> I would like to economize on RAM usage, so I installed the packages of
> XFCE.
>
> However, after installation, I see in gdm's login screen no way to
> switch desktops from Gnome to another desktop (such as KDE or XFCE).  I
> remember that there used to be such a dialog in the past.
>
> Currently, in the new installation, the gdm login screen has buttons
> only for shutdown options and for turning on accessibility provisions.
>
> Can anyone please remind how to access the desktop switching dialog from
> gdm's login screen (if possible at all)?
> Which additional package/s do I need to install to get this dialog?
>
> Thanks,
> --- Omer Zak
>
>
> --
> The volume of a pizza of thickness a and radius z can be described by
> the following formula:      pi zz a
> My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/
>
> My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone.
> They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which
> I may be affiliated in any way.
> WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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From borissh1983 at gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 23:07:40 2011
From: borissh1983 at gmail.com (Boris shtrasman)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:07:40 +0200
Subject: Are there any good reason why to use native api instead of ODBC ?
Message-ID: <CAPM6V6OVsdpwhvJ_1vH8P0_J=RJuZWLNidWSY07xU8FjFYajVQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi ,

Today I chatted with an experienced person and we had our
disagreements between database types and an interesting issue rose up
about using Native Api or ODBC ,
from what I experienced in the last years I can't find any good reason
why not use ODBC:

Pro:
1. using ODBC is more prone to api change.
2. it is easier (I think) to maintain ODBC based code , I've seen code
based with more then  15 years and it is still maintainable,  and the
code stores db back compatibility (from SQL 2000 to SQL 2010).
3. didn't find any indication for performance penalty more then 10%
(didn't see that just found this number in a written benchmark a
fellow did few years ago).
4. don't violate GPL if your using a driver and just using the DB as
storage backed (*IANAL).

so as long you stick to good SQL (ANSI) code your pretty safe (yes I
know that the dbs have wonderful extensions the problem they have the
tendency to change api and not support what the others have)

But I'm pretty sure there situation when you should avoid using ODBC
(the problem I don't what they are).

Do you have any suggestions when should I use native api instead of ODBC ?


From idokan at gmail.com  Tue Oct 18 23:33:34 2011
From: idokan at gmail.com (ik)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 23:33:34 +0200
Subject: Are there any good reason why to use native api instead of ODBC ?
In-Reply-To: <CAPM6V6OVsdpwhvJ_1vH8P0_J=RJuZWLNidWSY07xU8FjFYajVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPM6V6OVsdpwhvJ_1vH8P0_J=RJuZWLNidWSY07xU8FjFYajVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOccsKABAxoFpJWuAuAPAA8fpPGpnVF4=Pus4UUBc4W8nJdzDw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 23:07, Boris shtrasman <borissh1983 at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi ,
>
> Today I chatted with an experienced person and we had our
> disagreements between database types and an interesting issue rose up
> about using Native Api or ODBC ,
> from what I experienced in the last years I can't find any good reason
> why not use ODBC:
>
> Pro:
> 1. using ODBC is more prone to api change.
> 2. it is easier (I think) to maintain ODBC based code , I've seen code
> based with more then  15 years and it is still maintainable,  and the
> code stores db back compatibility (from SQL 2000 to SQL 2010).
> 3. didn't find any indication for performance penalty more then 10%
> (didn't see that just found this number in a written benchmark a
> fellow did few years ago).
> 4. don't violate GPL if your using a driver and just using the DB as
> storage backed (*IANAL).
>
> so as long you stick to good SQL (ANSI) code your pretty safe (yes I
> know that the dbs have wonderful extensions the problem they have the
> tendency to change api and not support what the others have)
>
> But I'm pretty sure there situation when you should avoid using ODBC
> (the problem I don't what they are).
>
> Do you have any suggestions when should I use native api instead of ODBC ?
>
>
Boris, you'ved missed a lot of what I have said in the conversation, as you
see only narrow sight on things.

If you take Ruby, Python and even Delphi/FPC they all binding to the
official API rather then ODBC.
They use so because ODBC as you mentioned is very limited.
For example if I want to use stored procedures, udf, event driven work
(Firebird and PostgreSQL support TCP based events that you can trigger on
things), capture exceptions (user defined ones) etc... Well, using ODBC is
almost impossible for some of the things. It is more generic way of using
databases.

When all I require is simple connection to the database and run simple
tasks, it might provide good job. But when you are starting to have more
demands, or do not wish to place your whole data logic in your application
(amm MySQL anyone ?), then how ODBC can help you with that ?


Ido
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From borissh1983 at gmail.com  Wed Oct 19 00:08:46 2011
From: borissh1983 at gmail.com (Boris shtrasman)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 00:08:46 +0200
Subject: Are there any good reason why to use native api instead of ODBC ?
In-Reply-To: <CAOccsKABAxoFpJWuAuAPAA8fpPGpnVF4=Pus4UUBc4W8nJdzDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPM6V6OVsdpwhvJ_1vH8P0_J=RJuZWLNidWSY07xU8FjFYajVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOccsKABAxoFpJWuAuAPAA8fpPGpnVF4=Pus4UUBc4W8nJdzDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPM6V6MaCOeANLr8jTpdqf48zj3o_Zbonp68-dzWcDO_ZvMDvw@mail.gmail.com>

On 18/10/2011, ik <idokan at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 23:07, Boris shtrasman <borissh1983 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi ,
>>
>> Today I chatted with an experienced person and we had our
>> disagreements between database types and an interesting issue rose up
>> about using Native Api or ODBC ,
>> from what I experienced in the last years I can't find any good reason
>> why not use ODBC:
>>
>> Pro:
>> 1. using ODBC is more prone to api change.
>> 2. it is easier (I think) to maintain ODBC based code , I've seen code
>> based with more then  15 years and it is still maintainable,  and the
>> code stores db back compatibility (from SQL 2000 to SQL 2010).
>> 3. didn't find any indication for performance penalty more then 10%
>> (didn't see that just found this number in a written benchmark a
>> fellow did few years ago).
>> 4. don't violate GPL if your using a driver and just using the DB as
>> storage backed (*IANAL).
>>
>> so as long you stick to good SQL (ANSI) code your pretty safe (yes I
>> know that the dbs have wonderful extensions the problem they have the
>> tendency to change api and not support what the others have)
>>
>> But I'm pretty sure there situation when you should avoid using ODBC
>> (the problem I don't what they are).
>>
>> Do you have any suggestions when should I use native api instead of ODBC ?
>>
>>
> Boris, you'ved missed a lot of what I have said in the conversation, as you
> see only narrow sight on things.
>
> If you take Ruby, Python and even Delphi/FPC they all binding to the
> official API rather then ODBC.
> They use so because ODBC as you mentioned is very limited.
> For example if I want to use stored procedures, udf, event driven work
> (Firebird and PostgreSQL support TCP based events that you can trigger on
> things), capture exceptions (user defined ones) etc... Well, using ODBC is
> almost impossible for some of the things. It is more generic way of using
> databases.
>
> When all I require is simple connection to the database and run simple
> tasks, it might provide good job. But when you are starting to have more
> demands, or do not wish to place your whole data logic in your application
> (amm MySQL anyone ?), then how ODBC can help you with that ?
>
>
> Ido
>

for ODBC you can use SP ,  UDFs , and even calling an external
functionality but then you use db specific implementation (PL/SQL ,
T-SQL etc ...)
basicly if you can code it in SQL you can pass it via the connection
(there are the db specific issues like TDS but this is a side note).

about the data logic I agree if you don't wish to develop on low level
(and I'm talking on O/RM level) you most choose some middle wear.

perhaps I didn't get the opportunity but for the last 2 years I never
had a need that could not be satisfied via ODBC connection (small note
I'm a C + Perl dev so perhaps the needs in different languages is more
common).


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Wed Oct 19 10:09:36 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:09:36 +0200
Subject: Switching a newly-installed PC from Gnome to XFCE?
In-Reply-To: <CAK2xwaccH-tAba-+hFApyCCv+krPS5TCpWwOJVzg9D-xkhUYbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1318745744.3877.7.camel@c4>
	<CAK2xwaccH-tAba-+hFApyCCv+krPS5TCpWwOJVzg9D-xkhUYbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtQGZQD22POB-=EwRFtSMMfGUGSiE8YeK2aWVUWpRT=+kw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/18 Ari Becker <wickedpheonix at gmail.com>:
> If you don't want to use GNOME then you should remove the GNOME and GDM
> packages.

Well, removing GNOME just to use a different desktop environment does
not sound like a good solution. After all, you might want to run GNOME
applications.

Omer, sorry, I don't know Debian (or GNOME, for that matter) way of
doing things very well. However, I am guessing that if you grep the
files under /etc/X11 for (g|k|x)dm you should be able to get a clue.
On RedHat systems (yeah, I know, not necessarily the same, but I have
no Debian around to check) there is /etc/X11/prefdm that does the
choice of display manager in a somewhat smart way, with fallbacks etc.
Along the way, it sources /etc/sysconfig/desktop (that does not exist
unless you create it) that specifies your preferred desktop
environment.  You should be able to specify what you want in a similar
manner.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From w1 at zak.co.il  Wed Oct 19 15:38:55 2011
From: w1 at zak.co.il (Omer Zak)
Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 15:38:55 +0200
Subject: Switching a newly-installed PC from Gnome to XFCE?
In-Reply-To: <CAK2xwaccH-tAba-+hFApyCCv+krPS5TCpWwOJVzg9D-xkhUYbQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1318745744.3877.7.camel@c4>
	<CAK2xwaccH-tAba-+hFApyCCv+krPS5TCpWwOJVzg9D-xkhUYbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1319031535.3874.26.camel@c4>

Thanks, Ari (and also Oleg Goldshmidt).
As it happened, I installed SLiM (without removing Gnome packages) on
the laptop and it worked - enabled access to several desktops, XFCE
being one of them.
I think there was a dialog to select the default login manager during
installation.

Failed attempts:

1. I also had a look over /usr/share/doc/gdm3 - but the documentation
there was not useful.  There is no gdm3-doc package in Debian Squeeze.

2. There are configuration files in /etc/gdm3 but I was not successful
in figuring them out or whether there is an option to enable the feature
of choosing a desktop.

3. From Gnome main menu: Applications/System Tools/GkDebconf (Why the
hell is there no right click menu item to display the command line
actually invoked when selecting a menu item?!) starts GkDebconf.  I
choose Section 'gnome' and from it I select package 'gdm3'.  It then
asks for root password and...cycles back to the above package selection
dialog.

By the way, in Debian Wheezy you can install gdm (rather than gdm3,
which is installed by default in Debian Squeeze) and it then allows you
to switch desktops.

--- Omer


On Tue, 2011-10-18 at 12:36 -0700, Ari Becker wrote:
> If you don't want to use GNOME then you should remove the GNOME and
> GDM packages.
> 
> Try installing SLiM instead as a login manager for
> XFCE. Decent introductions are available, as is the Debian package
> information. Just remember to edit your /etc/inittab appropriately,
> i.e. make sure you boot to run-level 5 and load slim:
> 
> x:5:respawn:/usr/bin/slim >& /dev/null (copy-pasted from Slim
> documentation).
> 
> 
> so that you don't install slim and end up booting gdm anyways.
> 
> 
> -Ari Becker
> 
> On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 11:15 PM, Omer Zak <w1 at zak.co.il> wrote:
>         I made a new installation of Debian Squeeze.
>         Debian installer, by default, installed Gnome.
>         I would like to economize on RAM usage, so I installed the
>         packages of
>         XFCE.
>         
>         However, after installation, I see in gdm's login screen no
>         way to
>         switch desktops from Gnome to another desktop (such as KDE or
>         XFCE).  I
>         remember that there used to be such a dialog in the past.
>         
>         Currently, in the new installation, the gdm login screen has
>         buttons
>         only for shutdown options and for turning on accessibility
>         provisions.
>         
>         Can anyone please remind how to access the desktop switching
>         dialog from
>         gdm's login screen (if possible at all)?
>         Which additional package/s do I need to install to get this
>         dialog?




From shachar at shemesh.biz  Fri Oct 21 14:29:56 2011
From: shachar at shemesh.biz (Shachar Shemesh)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 14:29:56 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtR0=dBiTRKnp+WekVzEfWNvQpVOFXwxw77t=eKQOfAzEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtR0=dBiTRKnp+WekVzEfWNvQpVOFXwxw77t=eKQOfAzEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EA165C4.4040206@shemesh.biz>

On 10/18/2011 12:50 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
>> I understood that, and it's still unstable. Since if some young team member
>> not aware of the $Id: trick, will write:
>>     log("$Id: %d $Name: %s\n",id,name)
>> ident will return garbage.
> Someone may alter keyword expansions just before the build, too.
>
>> If you have documented way to get the ident strings, it's more stable.
> The whole point is to have these strings everywhere, otherwise they
> are not very useful. This means the whole development team is aware of
> and uses the convention.
>
I understand why these keywords were useful for CVS/RCS, where each file
had its own version number. When working with SVN, however, a single
number uniquely identifies the entire source tree. Why not have that one
number and get it done with?

Shachar

-- 
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com

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From elazarl at gmail.com  Fri Oct 21 15:23:11 2011
From: elazarl at gmail.com (Elazar Leibovich)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 15:23:11 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtSj+kVfBVeFjyHwThVQoB7QA5VtWBgozAF21UuDgBC0zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtR0=dBiTRKnp+WekVzEfWNvQpVOFXwxw77t=eKQOfAzEQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFmKKUkTfA5FQDM8KpVKakNL-51Qmymc5QkmNPnFZrTg+ug@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtSj+kVfBVeFjyHwThVQoB7QA5VtWBgozAF21UuDgBC0zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHNTFmKr5+Xo7V3-CFhdezr6LukAqHkh7cTWZ_hppZSeCFo2jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org> wrote:

> > I didn't understand how, eg, my C++ scheme don't work. I think it should
> > work even if you're including the $Id$ strings in the headers files.
>
> Apart from the fact that you assume that main.cc is mine (what if my
> product is a library?),


There's an important point here.
If your product is an .so, all you need to do, is to expose the ident
objects to the library users (of course, in this case the names of the
variables must be unique per file version). This way, the linker is forced
to leave those strings intact.

If you're product is an .a archive, well, your out of luck. The same method
for so files will work of course for the .a archive, but, the client who
links to your program, is free to use a whole program optimizer, which might
wipe off your program. I'm not sure it's even possible to mark those strings
as "always include" in the object file.

I really recommend this piece[1] by Meyers, who shows that fighting with the
optimizer, is doomed to misery.

[1] PDF: http://www.aristeia.com/Papers/DDJ_Jul_Aug_2004_revised.pdf Bottom
of page 6, Ctrl-F "In essence, you?ve just ?red the opening salvo"



> depends on a whole lot of things I wouldn't
> necessarily need for any other purpose, makes the strings global

Not too global. The global list of strings is exposed only in the main() and
in the implementation of the Ident class. If you hate global variables -
make it a static variable of the Ident class.

> and
> mutable,


The list of strings is mutable, right? The stings can be immutable. Also it
is possible to use a push-only queue instead of vector. But I'm nitpicking
now ;-)


> and won't pick up, e.g., the case of wrong header I mentioned
> before (I checked)?
>

I don't understand why is that.
See here <https://github.com/elazarl/ident-for-cpp>[2] for an implementation
which Works For Me (TM), with no non-static global variables, and it works
for header files.

[2] https://github.com/elazarl/ident-for-cpp


>
> This is a good idea in general, but it's not really an improvement.
> The trusted old scheme has all the needed properties and if gcc had an
> option to disable this particular kind of optimization selectively I
> wouldn't have a problem.
>

If I understood correctly, the problem was how to port the GCC
optimization-turn-off to other compilers without macro hackeries. I believe
this is a good portable way. I'm trying to find a sane way to do that in
portable C, but I'm not sure it's possible without too much effort.

That said, the macro+gcc attribute seems the most reasonable approach given
that VS have a way to disable this optimization. However, it spoils all the
fun.


>
> --
> Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org
>
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From pub at goldshmidt.org  Fri Oct 21 21:46:26 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:46:26 +0200
Subject: Newer gcc swallow version control keywords
In-Reply-To: <4EA165C4.4040206@shemesh.biz>
References: <CAM+3FtQxECk9C8G=b9S4UXVp82_aD3fUYeQFOdbdAQtc1z-Cig@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHNTFm+VqcZdAxBUEWSneajZy86KxaqW-aejP2T9HKYz+YNkXQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111018095026.GA30976@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAHNTFmKNhynLY3LybuS5b6rwTSNAcjFX3Yv42AH1CtDLMe4v3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtR0=dBiTRKnp+WekVzEfWNvQpVOFXwxw77t=eKQOfAzEQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EA165C4.4040206@shemesh.biz>
Message-ID: <m3sjmmp1pp.fsf@goldshmidt.org>

Shachar Shemesh <shachar at shemesh.biz> writes:

> I understand why these keywords were useful for CVS/RCS, where each
> file had its own version number. When working with SVN, however, a
> single number uniquely identifies the entire source tree. Why not
> have that one number and get it done with?

I believe it has been asked and answered, Your Honour ;-). 

Having a single number is enough only under a whole bunch of
assumptions: the code must come from a single branch of a single
repository, the build and release systems must be 100% reliable, no
human mistake may occur on the way between develper workstation and
customer deployment, etc., etc.

The same argument is employed by the gcc team who say - either in the
bug trail Nadav quoted or in the mailing list thread Ghiora (I think...
sorry if I am mixing it up) found - that it is enough for their
purposes so it must be enough for everybody.

I say that with all the complexity of gcc their case is conceptually
simple (a single piece of software from a single repository) and their
build/release process is probably better than most. I assume that I do
not have to explain to everybody that the difficulties inherent in
changing processes in an organization are significant, legacy
structures and processes abound, and every device that helps flushing
problems early, quickly, and with minimal pain is worth deploying.

So, my conclusion is that gcc at present has a problem. By applying an
optimization that cannot be turned off it makes an assumption that it
is smarter than the user[1] (isn't this a complaint typically aimed at,
say, Microsoft Office? hmphhh...), and an important use case that is
disabled by said optimization is dismissed, in part, on the grounds
that the gcc team didn't need it in gcc code.

This last paragraph is, of course, me venting. At people who are in no
way to blame. That was easy, and helpful - thanks everybody!

[1] Hey, we see that this variable cannot possibly be used by any
    program of which it is a part of, so we'll assume you are either
    stupid or careless and we'll just erase it without trace. Well, I
    am not stupid, I intended this variable to be used by another
    program to which this program is but an input, and you know what:
    it's none of the compiler's business to decide that I cannot
    possibly want that.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From hetzbh at gmail.com  Sat Oct 22 23:03:49 2011
From: hetzbh at gmail.com (Hetz Ben Hamo)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:03:49 +0200
Subject: remote directory/partition
Message-ID: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Here is a theoretical question:

Lets say I have a Linux server in Israel, and I have a block of storage
(lets say iSCSI partition for this example) in USA, and I want to mount it
on my server in Israel.
iSCSI over such a long distance and with big latency (thanks to our ISP's)
is a big no no, it's too slow. NFS is also not a good idea (here's
why<http://goo.gl/vn4GM>
).

I can take this storage, format it and export it from my server in USA, but
which protocol would give me:

   1. All (or almost all) functionality of a local mounted device
   2. Can work with long distance latencies
   3. won't "kill" the machine if the remote directory is disconnected /
   "disappeared"
   4. If possible - supported (either directly or using 3rd party driver) on
   Windows 2008 (Linux is the main concern, Windows is optional)

i'm not looking for FTP solution (I checked curlftpfs, which is FTP
implemented using FUSE. it's nice but when it disconnects, the machine will
have issues), and webdav (slow)

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Hetz
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From yba at tkos.co.il  Sat Oct 22 23:15:45 2011
From: yba at tkos.co.il (Jonathan Ben Avraham)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:15:45 +0200 (IST)
Subject: [YBA] sign a jar without Java?
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1110222309530.2056@yehudia.tkos.co.il>

Dear Linux-IL colleagues,
Anyone know how to create a signature for a jarfile manifest using OpenSSL 
(or anything other than Java security tools) that Jarsigner will verify?
Shavua tov,

  - yba


-- 
  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA    ~. .~   Tk Open Systems
=}------------------------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo------------{=
      - yba at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -


From yba at tkos.co.il  Sat Oct 22 23:53:32 2011
From: yba at tkos.co.il (Jonathan Ben Avraham)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:53:32 +0200 (IST)
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1110222340520.2056@yehudia.tkos.co.il>

Hi Hetz,
Unless one side of the pond is read-only there will be problems with any 
solution due to the latency.
I suggest that you create a local copy of the data and use inotify-tools 
to trigger rsync. See example on
https://github.com/rvoicilas/inotify-tools/wiki/
Shavua tov,

  - yba



On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:

> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:03:49 +0200
> From: Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com>
> To: ILUG <linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il>
> Subject: remote directory/partition
> 
> Hi,
> Here is a theoretical question:
> 
> Lets say I have a Linux server in Israel, and I have a block of storage (lets say iSCSI partition for this
> example) in USA, and I want to mount it on my server in Israel.
> iSCSI over such a long distance and with big latency (thanks to our ISP's) is a big no no, it's too slow.
> NFS is also not a good idea (here's why).
> 
> I can take this storage, format it and export it from my server in USA, but which protocol would give me:
>  1. All (or almost all) functionality of a local mounted device
>  2. Can work with long distance latencies
>  3. won't "kill" the machine if the remote directory is disconnected / "disappeared"
>  4. If possible - supported (either directly or using 3rd party driver) on Windows 2008 (Linux is the main
>     concern, Windows is optional)
> i'm not looking for FTP solution (I checked curlftpfs, which is FTP implemented using FUSE. it's nice but
> when it disconnects, the machine will have issues), and webdav (slow)
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks,
> Hetz
> 
>

-- 
  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA    ~. .~   Tk Open Systems
=}------------------------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo------------{=
      - yba at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
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From shachar at shemesh.biz  Sat Oct 22 23:55:00 2011
From: shachar at shemesh.biz (Shachar Shemesh)
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:55:00 +0200
Subject: [YBA] sign a jar without Java?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1110222309530.2056@yehudia.tkos.co.il>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1110222309530.2056@yehudia.tkos.co.il>
Message-ID: <4EA33BB4.9010909@shemesh.biz>

On 10/22/2011 11:15 PM, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
> Dear Linux-IL colleagues,
> Anyone know how to create a signature for a jarfile manifest using
> OpenSSL (or anything other than Java security tools) that Jarsigner
> will verify?
> Shavua tov,
>
>  - yba
>
>
Not only do I NOT know how to do that, I don't even know how to verify
the signature myself. The hashes claim to be MD5 (or whatever other
standard hashing algorithm), but an MD5 of the signed files do not yield
the same hash. I have no idea what is, in fact, signed there.

If you can calculate the has, I may be able to help you with the actual
signature, however.

Shachar

-- 
Shachar Shemesh
Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.
http://www.lingnu.com

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From yba at tkos.co.il  Sun Oct 23 00:16:33 2011
From: yba at tkos.co.il (Jonathan Ben Avraham)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 00:16:33 +0200 (IST)
Subject: [YBA] sign a jar without Java?
In-Reply-To: <4EA33BB4.9010909@shemesh.biz>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1110222309530.2056@yehudia.tkos.co.il>
	<4EA33BB4.9010909@shemesh.biz>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1110222356370.2056@yehudia.tkos.co.il>

Hi Shachar,
So far I have managed to write a C program using libarchive and the 
OpenSSL libcrypto API that creates a jarfile with the exact same manifest 
and .SF as jarfile does - I can reproduce the exact same MD5 or SHA1 
hashes. I made my own CA and signed the "JETTY.SF" file but jarsigner 
verification fails when it finds a DER encoding that it cannot handle in 
the signature. The signature looks identical to the signature produced by 
jarsigner when viewed with openssl pkcs7 -inform DER -in JETTY.RSA 
-print_certs -text. I instrumented my own build of openjdk to find exactly 
where the problem happens. At this point in the game I either have to find 
someone who knows the "secret" or I am going to have to get serious about 
understanding the jar verification at the binary (DER) level. AFAIK no one 
has published a C/C++ jarsigner equivalent.

  - yba



On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Shachar Shemesh wrote:

> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:55:00 +0200
> From: Shachar Shemesh <shachar at shemesh.biz>
> To: linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> Subject: Re: [YBA] sign a jar without Java?
> 
> On 10/22/2011 11:15 PM, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:
>       Dear Linux-IL colleagues,
>       Anyone know how to create a signature for a jarfile manifest using OpenSSL (or anything other
>       than Java security tools) that Jarsigner will verify?
>       Shavua tov,
>
>       ?- yba
> 
> 
> Not only do I NOT know how to do that, I don't even know how to verify the signature myself. The hashes
> claim to be MD5 (or whatever other standard hashing algorithm), but an MD5 of the signed files do not
> yield the same hash. I have no idea what is, in fact, signed there.
> 
> If you can calculate the has, I may be able to help you with the actual signature, however.
> 
> Shachar
> 
>

-- 
  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA    ~. .~   Tk Open Systems
=}------------------------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo------------{=
      - yba at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
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From linux-il at didi.bardavid.org  Sun Oct 23 09:27:34 2011
From: linux-il at didi.bardavid.org (Yedidyah Bar-David)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 09:27:34 +0200
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:03:49PM +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Here is a theoretical question:
> 
> Lets say I have a Linux server in Israel, and I have a block of storage
> (lets say iSCSI partition for this example) in USA, and I want to mount it
> on my server in Israel.
> iSCSI over such a long distance and with big latency (thanks to our ISP's)

Not sure it's mainly the ISPs, BTW. You do also depend on the physics of
speed of light.

> is a big no no, it's too slow. NFS is also not a good idea (here's
> why<http://goo.gl/vn4GM>
> ).
> 
> I can take this storage, format it and export it from my server in USA, but
> which protocol would give me:
> 
>    1. All (or almost all) functionality of a local mounted device

Do you need it read/write on both sides? If so, you are going to have
big problems if the link is cut.

>    2. Can work with long distance latencies
>    3. won't "kill" the machine if the remote directory is disconnected /
>    "disappeared"
>    4. If possible - supported (either directly or using 3rd party driver) on
>    Windows 2008 (Linux is the main concern, Windows is optional)

I used drbd on a LAN, and know that it can theoretically work rather well
on larger distance when used as read-write on one side only. They also
have a pay-for tool to do this asyncronously called drbd proxy. This
implies using a local copy and have drbd sync it. You can choose between
three what they call "Protocols" to affect the perceived local latency.
-- 
Didi



From yba at tkos.co.il  Sun Oct 23 10:24:40 2011
From: yba at tkos.co.il (Jonathan Ben Avraham)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 10:24:40 +0200 (IST)
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1110231022030.16296@wlin57.wavionnetworks.com>

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, Yedidyah Bar-David wrote:

> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 09:27:34 +0200
> From: Yedidyah Bar-David <linux-il at didi.bardavid.org>
> To: Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com>
> Cc: ILUG <linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il>
> Subject: Re: remote directory/partition
> 
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:03:49PM +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Here is a theoretical question:
>>
>> Lets say I have a Linux server in Israel, and I have a block of storage
>> (lets say iSCSI partition for this example) in USA, and I want to mount it
>> on my server in Israel.
>> iSCSI over such a long distance and with big latency (thanks to our ISP's)
>
> Not sure it's mainly the ISPs, BTW. You do also depend on the physics of
> speed of light.

If you use IP over nutrino-based transport you might be able to shave a 
few nanoseconds off the speed of light, see this: 
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/09/neutrinos-faster-than-light/
Shavua tov,

  - yba



>> is a big no no, it's too slow. NFS is also not a good idea (here's
>> why<http://goo.gl/vn4GM>
>> ).
>>
>> I can take this storage, format it and export it from my server in USA, but
>> which protocol would give me:
>>
>>    1. All (or almost all) functionality of a local mounted device
>
> Do you need it read/write on both sides? If so, you are going to have
> big problems if the link is cut.
>
>>    2. Can work with long distance latencies
>>    3. won't "kill" the machine if the remote directory is disconnected /
>>    "disappeared"
>>    4. If possible - supported (either directly or using 3rd party driver) on
>>    Windows 2008 (Linux is the main concern, Windows is optional)
>
> I used drbd on a LAN, and know that it can theoretically work rather well
> on larger distance when used as read-write on one side only. They also
> have a pay-for tool to do this asyncronously called drbd proxy. This
> implies using a local copy and have drbd sync it. You can choose between
> three what they call "Protocols" to affect the perceived local latency.
>

-- 
  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA    ~. .~   Tk Open Systems
=}------------------------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo------------{=
      - yba at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -


From ezaton at tournament.org.il  Sun Oct 23 10:47:07 2011
From: ezaton at tournament.org.il (Etzion Bar-Noy)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 10:47:07 +0200
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1110231022030.16296@wlin57.wavionnetworks.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1110231022030.16296@wlin57.wavionnetworks.com>
Message-ID: <CA+vBjEc0zga0K9PuaJsC76ocR1zGeyPO-r9tSRggkyOCiBpWhA@mail.gmail.com>

Nutrino will enforce connection-less transport. I am not sure it is desired.
He will have to emulate connection tracking by software, which will pay
these few nanoseconds earned earlier. Not worth it, I think.
Gravity generator. The speed of gravity is still unknown, but might be very
very fast, and will enforce low-latency and cross-barrier transport across
continents. I don't think, however, you can find a gravity generator in the
commodity market. Not sure if you can find any at all :-)

Ez

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:24 AM, Jonathan Ben Avraham <yba at tkos.co.il>wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, Yedidyah Bar-David wrote:
>
>  Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 09:27:34 +0200
>> From: Yedidyah Bar-David <linux-il at didi.bardavid.org>
>> To: Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com>
>> Cc: ILUG <linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il>
>> Subject: Re: remote directory/partition
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:03:49PM +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Here is a theoretical question:
>>>
>>> Lets say I have a Linux server in Israel, and I have a block of storage
>>> (lets say iSCSI partition for this example) in USA, and I want to mount
>>> it
>>> on my server in Israel.
>>> iSCSI over such a long distance and with big latency (thanks to our
>>> ISP's)
>>>
>>
>> Not sure it's mainly the ISPs, BTW. You do also depend on the physics of
>> speed of light.
>>
>
> If you use IP over nutrino-based transport you might be able to shave a few
> nanoseconds off the speed of light, see this: http://www.wired.com/**
> wiredscience/2011/09/**neutrinos-faster-than-light/<http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/09/neutrinos-faster-than-light/>
> Shavua tov,
>
>  - yba
>
>
>
>
>  is a big no no, it's too slow. NFS is also not a good idea (here's
>>> why<http://goo.gl/vn4GM>
>>> ).
>>>
>>> I can take this storage, format it and export it from my server in USA,
>>> but
>>> which protocol would give me:
>>>
>>>   1. All (or almost all) functionality of a local mounted device
>>>
>>
>> Do you need it read/write on both sides? If so, you are going to have
>> big problems if the link is cut.
>>
>>    2. Can work with long distance latencies
>>>   3. won't "kill" the machine if the remote directory is disconnected /
>>>   "disappeared"
>>>   4. If possible - supported (either directly or using 3rd party driver)
>>> on
>>>   Windows 2008 (Linux is the main concern, Windows is optional)
>>>
>>
>> I used drbd on a LAN, and know that it can theoretically work rather well
>> on larger distance when used as read-write on one side only. They also
>> have a pay-for tool to do this asyncronously called drbd proxy. This
>> implies using a local copy and have drbd sync it. You can choose between
>> three what they call "Protocols" to affect the perceived local latency.
>>
>>
> --
>  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA    ~. .~   Tk Open
> Systems
> =}----------------------------**--------------------ooO--U--**
> Ooo------------{=
>     - yba at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/**mailman/listinfo/linux-il<http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il>
>
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From tzafrir at cohens.org.il  Sun Oct 23 10:58:41 2011
From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 08:58:41 +0000
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1110231022030.16296@wlin57.wavionnetworks.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1110231022030.16296@wlin57.wavionnetworks.com>
Message-ID: <20111023085841.GA31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:24:40AM +0200, Jonathan Ben Avraham wrote:

> If you use IP over nutrino-based transport you might be able to shave a  
> few nanoseconds off the speed of light, see this:  
> http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/09/neutrinos-faster-than-light/
> Shavua tov,

The speed of light is hardly the issue here: there are worse practical
limitations. But anyway, that seems to have been a miscalculation of the
distance:

http://dvice.com/archives/2011/10/speedy-neutrino.php

(And for those of you who ask why those stupid folks use a GPS to
messure the distance and don't messure it accurately once: the ground
around the Alps moves. And the distance has changed over the course of
the experiment)

So lighttpd is still safe, I guess.

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen         | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il |                    | a Mutt's
tzafrir at cohens.org.il |                    |  best
tzafrir at debian.org    |                    | friend


From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Sun Oct 23 11:13:41 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:13:41 +0200
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <CA+vBjEc0zga0K9PuaJsC76ocR1zGeyPO-r9tSRggkyOCiBpWhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1110231022030.16296@wlin57.wavionnetworks.com>
	<CA+vBjEc0zga0K9PuaJsC76ocR1zGeyPO-r9tSRggkyOCiBpWhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111023091341.GA23585@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011, Etzion Bar-Noy wrote about "Re: remote directory/partition":
> Gravity generator. The speed of gravity is still unknown, but might be very
> very fast, and will enforce low-latency and cross-barrier transport across
> continents. I don't think, however, you can find a gravity generator in the
> commodity market. Not sure if you can find any at all :-)

Indeed. It is worth remembering that the diameter of a circle is a full
1.5708 (PI/2) times shorter than half its circumference, so if you can get
the communication *through* the earth, you can make the latency 37% lower
than with traditional wires-over-the-surface communication technology.

:-)


-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                    Sunday, Oct 23 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |An apple a day keeps the doctor away. An
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |onion a day keeps everyone away!


From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 11:16:18 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:16:18 +0200
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <20111023085841.GA31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1110231022030.16296@wlin57.wavionnetworks.com>
	<20111023085841.GA31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>
Message-ID: <386D3597-C13C-47FD-B439-3D4D9189D669@gmail.com>


On Oct 23, 2011, at 10:58 AM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

> (And for those of you who ask why those stupid folks use a GPS to
> messure the distance and don't messure it accurately once: the ground
> around the Alps moves. And the distance has changed over the course of
> the experiment)
>
> So lighttpd is still safe, I guess.


This is all based on the assumption that the distance between two  
points on the internet is a straight line.

It's not.

Best example is that anyone using an Israeli ISP knows that they  
connect from Israel to the UK and from the UK to the US and if you  
geolocate to a closer server, such as Italy or Turkey you get horrible  
performance.

I complained to the people that provided the geolocation data, but  
they told me they only listed where you were and it was up to their  
customer to decide which servers were close or not. Since I was not  
going to complain to hundreds of server operators, I gave up.

I once tried to listen to a web feed of an English language radio  
station in Ramallah. The feed went from Ramallah to South Africa and  
was sent out from there, and to reach me from the South African  
server, packets had to travel from there to Germany, from Germany to  
the US, from the US to the UK and then to me. I have no idea of how  
many unlisted hops were in between.

I've used SAMBA over SSH tunneling for relatively local connection,  
e.g. an Israeli cellular modem to an Israeli land line ISP to my  
system, but I have no idea of how it would work across international  
lines.

Except for latency, if you spent the money for dedicated decent upload  
bandwidth, say 10m bits per second, you could get a reasonable  
connection, and the latency would not be too bad. On the other hand  
you can buy a lot of dedicated US servers and aDSL lines to sync them  
with for that money.

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 11:18:44 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:18:44 +0200
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <20111023091341.GA23585@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1110231022030.16296@wlin57.wavionnetworks.com>
	<CA+vBjEc0zga0K9PuaJsC76ocR1zGeyPO-r9tSRggkyOCiBpWhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023091341.GA23585@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <ECC1567A-86B4-4191-BAA9-0D38C138174E@gmail.com>


On Oct 23, 2011, at 11:13 AM, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> Indeed. It is worth remembering that the diameter of a circle is a  
> full
> 1.5708 (PI/2) times shorter than half its circumference, so if you  
> can get
> the communication *through* the earth, you can make the latency 37%  
> lower
> than with traditional wires-over-the-surface communication technology.


If you are going that far, you can just install an oracle database,  
and have it serve you the data before you ask for it. Make sure not to  
get the Cassandra version, the data is unreliable.

:-)

Geoff.



-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Sun Oct 23 11:28:10 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:28:10 +0200
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <ECC1567A-86B4-4191-BAA9-0D38C138174E@gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1110231022030.16296@wlin57.wavionnetworks.com>
	<CA+vBjEc0zga0K9PuaJsC76ocR1zGeyPO-r9tSRggkyOCiBpWhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023091341.GA23585@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<ECC1567A-86B4-4191-BAA9-0D38C138174E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111023092810.GA24309@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011, geoffrey mendelson wrote about "Re: remote directory/partition":
> If you are going that far, you can just install an oracle database,
> and have it serve you the data before you ask for it. Make sure not
> to get the Cassandra version, the data is unreliable.

Actually, Cassandra is very reliable - it just gives you answers that you
didn't want to hear... :-)

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                    Sunday, Oct 23 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |A computer without Microsoft is like a
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |chocolate cake without mustard.


From Linux-IL at udif.com  Sun Oct 23 11:35:31 2011
From: Linux-IL at udif.com (Udi Finkelstein)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:35:31 +0200
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <20111023091341.GA23585@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1110231022030.16296@wlin57.wavionnetworks.com>
	<CA+vBjEc0zga0K9PuaJsC76ocR1zGeyPO-r9tSRggkyOCiBpWhA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023091341.GA23585@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <CAHAFOD-VN02MeGx6TtOMinkHxDU=iqUpgqNga=k8ii8+-+C_dA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Nadav Har'El <nyh at math.technion.ac.il>wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011, Etzion Bar-Noy wrote about "Re: remote
> directory/partition":
> > Gravity generator. The speed of gravity is still unknown, but might be
> very
> > very fast, and will enforce low-latency and cross-barrier transport
> across
> > continents. I don't think, however, you can find a gravity generator in
> the
> > commodity market. Not sure if you can find any at all :-)
>
> Indeed. It is worth remembering that the diameter of a circle is a full
> 1.5708 (PI/2) times shorter than half its circumference, so if you can get
> the communication *through* the earth, you can make the latency 37% lower
> than with traditional wires-over-the-surface communication technology.
>

The Neutrinos were actually traveling THROUGH the earth.

Quoted from
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/09/neutrinos-travel-faster-than-lig.html:

The data come from a 1300-metric-ton particle detector named Oscillation
Project with Emulsion-tRacking Apparatus (OPERA). Lurking in Italy's
subterranean Gran Sasso National Laboratory, OPERA detects neutrinos that
are fired through the earth from the European particle physics laboratory,
CERN, near Geneva, Switzerland. As the particles hardly interact at all with
other matter, they stream right through the ground, with only a very few
striking the material in the detector and making a noticeable shower of
particles.

Udi
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From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Sun Oct 23 12:28:10 2011
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 12:28:10 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
Message-ID: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>

Hi all,

The Free Software Foundation started a campaign called ?Stand up for your
freedom to install free software!? about Microsoft's plan to enforce ?Secure Boot? in the installations of Windows 8, which will prevent people from being able to boot into GNU/Linux, one of the BSD variants, or other operating systems. You can sign it here:

http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement

More information can be found at:

http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2011/10/fsf-campaign-against-secure-boot.html

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
Apple Inc. is Evil - http://www.shlomifish.org/open-source/anti/apple/

<ew73>  VB.NET is all of the fun of enforced privacy OO with all of the power
of BASIC.           ? Freenode?s #perl

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .


From choo at actcom.co.il  Sun Oct 23 12:01:37 2011
From: choo at actcom.co.il (guy keren)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 12:01:37 +0200
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EA3E601.2090702@actcom.co.il>


as far as i know, the only available solutions for this problem - are 
commercial solutions, that perform some kind of caching on the local 
side - this assuming you need to access the device on both sides (i.e. 
both in the USA and in israel).

if your needs are different - please state them - perhaps there's 
another way.

--guy

On 10/22/2011 11:03 PM, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Here is a theoretical question:
>
> Lets say I have a Linux server in Israel, and I have a block of storage
> (lets say iSCSI partition for this example) in USA, and I want to mount
> it on my server in Israel.
> iSCSI over such a long distance and with big latency (thanks to our
> ISP's) is a big no no, it's too slow. NFS is also not a good idea
> (here's why <http://goo.gl/vn4GM>).
>
> I can take this storage, format it and export it from my server in USA,
> but which protocol would give me:
>
>  1. All (or almost all) functionality of a local mounted device
>  2. Can work with long distance latencies
>  3. won't "kill" the machine if the remote directory is disconnected /
>     "disappeared"
>  4. If possible - supported (either directly or using 3rd party driver)
>     on Windows 2008 (Linux is the main concern, Windows is optional)
>
> i'm not looking for FTP solution (I checked curlftpfs, which is FTP
> implemented using FUSE. it's nice but when it disconnects, the machine
> will have issues), and webdav (slow)
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Hetz
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il



From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 13:06:53 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 13:06:53 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>


On Oct 23, 2011, at 12:28 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
>
> The Free Software Foundation started a campaign called ?Stand up for  
> your
> freedom to install free software!? about Microsoft's plan to enforce  
> ?Secure Boot? in the installations of Windows 8, which will prevent  
> people from being able to boot into GNU/Linux, one of the BSD  
> variants, or other operating systems. You can sign it here:
>
> http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement


It's pure FUD.
"we are concerned that Microsoft and hardware manufacturers will  
implement these boot restrictions in a way that will prevent users  
from booting anything other than Windows."

Not that they are, or saying they will, or even hinted they will.

The FSF is struggling to regain some semblance of public support after  
RMS's disastrous FSF boycott of Israel and his comments about Steve  
Jobs. Do the world a favor and let the FSF die with dignity, instead  
of being remembered as a bunch of racist FUDslinging lunatics.

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From ori at helicontech.co.il  Sun Oct 23 13:11:01 2011
From: ori at helicontech.co.il (Ori Idan)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 13:11:01 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACyhTRFdWw835Xr88e9vsv5b32UWJ-pwNZjETodBWoedMuuPKA@mail.gmail.com>

Unfortunately this is not FUD at all, it was reported by a Red-Hat employee
and was not denied by Microsoft.

See:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/21/secure_boot_firmware_linux_exclusion_fears/

-- 
Ori Idan


On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 1:06 PM, geoffrey mendelson <
geoffreymendelson at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Oct 23, 2011, at 12:28 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
>
>>
>> The Free Software Foundation started a campaign called ?Stand up for your
>> freedom to install free software!? about Microsoft's plan to enforce
>> ?Secure Boot? in the installations of Windows 8, which will prevent people
>> from being able to boot into GNU/Linux, one of the BSD variants, or other
>> operating systems. You can sign it here:
>>
>> http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/**secure-boot-vs-restricted-**boot/statement<http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement>
>>
>
>
> It's pure FUD.
> "we are concerned that Microsoft and hardware manufacturers will implement
> these boot restrictions in a way that will prevent users from booting
> anything other than Windows."
>
> Not that they are, or saying they will, or even hinted they will.
>
> The FSF is struggling to regain some semblance of public support after
> RMS's disastrous FSF boycott of Israel and his comments about Steve Jobs. Do
> the world a favor and let the FSF die with dignity, instead of being
> remembered as a bunch of racist FUDslinging lunatics.
>
> Geoff.
>
> --
> Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
> My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/**mailman/listinfo/linux-il<http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il>
>
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From tzafrir at cohens.org.il  Sun Oct 23 13:36:38 2011
From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:36:38 +0000
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CACyhTRFdWw835Xr88e9vsv5b32UWJ-pwNZjETodBWoedMuuPKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CACyhTRFdWw835Xr88e9vsv5b32UWJ-pwNZjETodBWoedMuuPKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111023113638.GB31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 01:11:01PM +0200, Ori Idan wrote:
> Unfortunately this is not FUD at all, it was reported by a Red-Hat employee
> and was not denied by Microsoft.
> 
> See:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/21/secure_boot_firmware_linux_exclusion_fears/

The said RedHat employee is Matthew Garret. Here is the latest from him
about the issue:

http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/6503.html

Specifically while the UEFI secure boot specification allows the option
of accepting custom boot loader at startup (prompting the user to
authorize it), Microsoft's requirements for Windows 8 compatibility
forbid this.

There are some reasonable technical reasons for not allowing this (it
is indeed not unlike the prompt for a self-signed SSL certificate in a
web browser). But then if we follow this analogy, we'll be left in a
world where Microsoft practically signs all certificates. If this would
happen on the web, it would be a bad thing as well.

(I suggest you actually read those links and don't comment only based on
my over-simplistic message)

BTW: I believe ChromeOS relies on a similar "secure boot" mechanism,
though those devices are supposed to have a switch (BIOS setting or
whatever) to switch to an "insecure mode".

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen         | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il |                    | a Mutt's
tzafrir at cohens.org.il |                    |  best
tzafrir at debian.org    |                    | friend


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Sun Oct 23 14:08:36 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 14:08:36 +0200
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtSw1Jq5nO9wSuN-4m4ax0vo5dw8USV7_FOEE2+C93F8=g@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/22 Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com>:
> Hi,
> Here is a theoretical question:
> Lets say I have a Linux server in Israel, and I have a block of storage
> (lets say iSCSI partition for this example) in USA, and I want to mount it
> on my server in Israel.
> iSCSI over such a long distance and with big latency (thanks to our ISP's)
> is a big no no, it's too slow. NFS is also not a good idea (here's why).
> I can take this storage, format it and export it from my server in USA, but
> which protocol would give me:
>
> All (or almost all) functionality of a local mounted device
> Can work with long distance latencies
> won't "kill" the machine if the remote directory is disconnected /
> "disappeared"
> If possible - supported (either directly or using 3rd party driver) on
> Windows 2008 (Linux is the main concern, Windows is optional)

Some "cluster" filesystem with aggressive local caching such as AFS or
GPFS? This assumes that you have a "node" in the US, not just "a block
of storage" that you need to access at block level (iSCSI). Your
consideration of NFS makes me think this part is acceptable.

You didn't list FOSS/free beer as requirements, so... ;-)

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From nad.oby at gmail.com  Sun Oct 23 16:34:43 2011
From: nad.oby at gmail.com (Evgeniy Ginzburg)
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 16:34:43 +0200
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALRpzn8MS6H1D6Pchme_119KHqrFUwKKCgPfyfyqAs4zY7yX+w@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/22 Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com>:
> Hi,
> Here is a theoretical question:
> Lets say I have a Linux server in Israel, and I have a block of storage
> (lets say iSCSI partition for this example) in USA, and I want to mount it
> on my server in Israel.
> iSCSI over such a long distance and with big latency (thanks to our ISP's)
> is a big no no, it's too slow. NFS is also not a good idea (here's why).
> I can take this storage, format it and export it from my server in USA,
but
> which protocol would give me:
>
> All (or almost all) functionality of a local mounted device
> Can work with long distance latencies
> won't "kill" the machine if the remote directory is disconnected /
> "disappeared"
> If possible - supported (either directly or using 3rd party driver) on
> Windows 2008 (Linux is the main concern, Windows is optional)
>
> i'm not looking for FTP solution (I checked curlftpfs, which is FTP
> implemented using FUSE. it's nice but when it disconnects, the machine
will
> have issues), and webdav (slow)
> Any suggestions?
> Thanks,
> Hetz
Hi.
Here are purely theoretical solutions (never used any of those).
http://cloudfs.org/2011/05/building-your-own-dropbox-equivalent/
http://sparkleshare.org/
http://mayrhofer.eu.org/dvcs-autosync
http://owncloud.org/index.php/Main_Page

I understand that all of this projects may NOT fit you needs but they may be
good hints for further search.

Regards, Evgeny
-- 
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
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From meirgotroot at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 00:40:39 2011
From: meirgotroot at gmail.com (Meir Michanie)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:40:39 +0200
Subject: OT:yard sale
Message-ID: <CAG4bpDLRpmLLXojZnh5WLnzsu_HmxXPrq=q9Subh2YewEV7aEA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.riunx.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=yard_sale

1 	PC pentium 4 - Ubuntu 	for a beer pack.
1 	PC Celeron 2 - Ubuntu for 	a beer pack.
1 	Book: Pascal by Dale/Orshalick for  	a beer
1 	Book: Unix unlished - Sys Admin's edition  for	a beer
1 	Book: Mastering Solaris 8 	for a beer
1 	Book: Hacker's challenge 2 	for a beer
1 	Graphic Card Nvidia 512 MB e-pci  for	a beer


From meirm at riunx.com  Mon Oct 24 00:41:08 2011
From: meirm at riunx.com (Meir Michanie)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:41:08 +0200
Subject: Fwd: OT:yard sale
In-Reply-To: <CAG4bpDLRpmLLXojZnh5WLnzsu_HmxXPrq=q9Subh2YewEV7aEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG4bpDLRpmLLXojZnh5WLnzsu_HmxXPrq=q9Subh2YewEV7aEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG4bpD+L-0WnLTGkMZWy5h5jJS7aL1_LKyvDpntuZQAHeo5o6A@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.riunx.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=yard_sale

1 ? ? ? PC pentium 4 - Ubuntu ? for a beer pack.
1 ? ? ? PC Celeron 2 - Ubuntu for ? ? ? a beer pack.
1 ? ? ? Book: Pascal by Dale/Orshalick for ? ? ?a beer
1 ? ? ? Book: Unix unlished - Sys Admin's edition ?for ?a beer
1 ? ? ? Book: Mastering Solaris 8 ? ? ? for a beer
1 ? ? ? Book: Hacker's challenge 2 ? ? ?for a beer
1 ? ? ? Graphic Card Nvidia 512 MB e-pci ?for ? a beer


From meirm at riunx.com  Mon Oct 24 01:20:08 2011
From: meirm at riunx.com (Meir Michanie)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 01:20:08 +0200
Subject: OT: Linux magazines
Message-ID: <CAG4bpDLiwJvLsCJzQYJe=PkTkxqT2g0is8g=zxOX3jrbK4P1Aw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi List,
I am selling a bunch of Linux magazines (around 180 issues)
Most of it is Linux Magazine www.linux-magazine.com
some Linux-Format,
some Linuxmag,
some Linux - Journal,
....
bidding starting at 300 shekels, less than 2 shekels per mag.
I own a lot of my knowledge to these magazines, so I am only willing
to hand them over to someone that cares and see their value.

Please contact me in private,

Thanks,
Meir


From amos.shapira at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 01:51:10 2011
From: amos.shapira at gmail.com (Amos Shapira)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:51:10 +1100
Subject: remote directory/partition
In-Reply-To: <20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>
References: <CAHVqw=jcp2fBGEJdZqPGnuFjeCE34E8A1Na3puA1joG5tsqCiw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111023072734.GC13689@didi-lap.office.isoc.org.il>
Message-ID: <CAF9n_WU5L1rep8q+ZoZFTC0H5pj3zSSSbRp9A1j-yLTe9OekLw@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 October 2011 18:27, Yedidyah Bar-David <linux-il at didi.bardavid.org> wrote:
> I used drbd on a LAN, and know that it can theoretically work rather well
> on larger distance when used as read-write on one side only. They also
> have a pay-for tool to do this asyncronously called drbd proxy. This
> implies using a local copy and have drbd sync it. You can choose between
> three what they call "Protocols" to affect the perceived local latency.

DRBD is indeed a very good tool for block device replication once you
learn your ways around it. I'm saying this from extensive personal
experience (we used to use it heavily before we moved to "real"
hardware SAN servers (EMC and now HDS)).

DRBD does not care about the file system. It'll support multi-node
read/write if you tell it to or force strict "one node can write" if
you tell it to. If you want to use it with read/write on more than one
side then you MUST use a Cluster-Aware Filesyste, (e.g. RedHat GFS or
Oracle OCFS2, note that these are different from "Distributed
Filesystems" below in that they do not replicate data (e.g. the data
could be on a shared disk like a SAN, which is what DRBD can be viewed
as)). We got GFS up for a test but performance on top of DRBD sucked.
I heard that people do use them so maybe in a different configuration
they are usable.  These are filesystems which read/write to a regular
device for all they care but they are AWARE that someone else might be
manipulating the same disk blocks at the same time and need extra
mechanisms to coordinate the changes.

About Didi's "protocol" remark - these are not really different
protocols (even through they call them "protcol a/b/c") but actually a
way for you to decide when would a writer consider the block to be
replicated - whether being ack'ed that it was received by the remote
node is enough, or when the remote node put it on its disk write queue
or when the remote's disk has ack'ed that it's physically written to
the platter (you can skip that one if the disk has Battery-Backup-Up
(BBU) write cache).

The main limitation of DRBD is that it allows for only two nodes to
sync between themselves (each side of the sync can be handled by a
cluster of servers for HA, but still only one logical host at each
end). The commercial add-on allows for a third node to listen to the
traffic, potentially over WAN to a remote site, and replace one of the
sides if it goes down. This is meant to be used for DC (Disaster
Recovery) sites and off-site backup.

DRBD also slows down the writes to local disk. Our measurements put
this cost at ~10% so it's usually not an issue. This is another factor
in deciding between "protocol" a/b/c.

There are a few "distributed filesystems" floating around (note these
are different from "Cluster Aware FS", they replicate the data at the
FS level). Here is a list from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_file_system (BTW, as far as I
know, HDFS shouldn't be considered a general-purpose file system, even
it would have been cool to use it for that :). Ceph support is part of
the vanilla Linux kernel. AFS
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_File_System) is the one I used to
hear about a lot at the time (long time ago), I think it's successor
is CODA, but I've never got a good enough excuse to try it.

It'll be interesting to hear what you ended up using and how.

Cheers,

--Amos


From amos.shapira at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 01:56:34 2011
From: amos.shapira at gmail.com (Amos Shapira)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:56:34 +1100
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 October 2011 22:06, geoffrey mendelson
<geoffreymendelson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Oct 23, 2011, at 12:28 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
>>
>> The Free Software Foundation started a campaign called ?Stand up for your
>> freedom to install free software!? about Microsoft's plan to enforce
>> ?Secure Boot? in the installations of Windows 8, which will prevent people
>> from being able to boot into GNU/Linux, one of the BSD variants, or other
>> operating systems. You can sign it here:
>>
>> http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement
>
>
> It's pure FUD.
> "we are concerned that Microsoft and hardware manufacturers will implement
> these boot restrictions in a way that will prevent users from booting
> anything other than Windows."
>
> Not that they are, or saying they will, or even hinted they will.

I didn't follow the detail but a few weeks ago this made a noise on
Slashdot and as far as I'm aware Microsoft issued a statement which
calmed down the activists and it became a none-issue. I didn't follow
it closely so I might be wrong.

>
> The FSF is struggling to regain some semblance of public support after RMS's
> disastrous FSF boycott of Israel and his comments about Steve Jobs. Do the
> world a favor and let the FSF die with dignity, instead of being remembered
> as a bunch of racist FUDslinging lunatics.

Were there echoes of this argument outside Israel?

--Amos


From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 13:51:56 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:51:56 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>


On Oct 24, 2011, at 1:56 AM, Amos Shapira wrote:

I wrote:
>>
>> The FSF is struggling to regain some semblance of public support  
>> after RMS's
>> disastrous FSF boycott of Israel and his comments about Steve Jobs.  
>> Do the
>> world a favor and let the FSF die with dignity, instead of being  
>> remembered
>> as a bunch of racist FUDslinging lunatics.
>

Amos wrote:
> Were there echoes of this argument outside Israel?


Yes, the hi-tech field is both heavily invested in Israel and  
populated by Jews. It spread like wildfire even making the BBC and  
other media. So while people who support the "Palestinian cause",  
where cheering that he made a stand, everyone with investment in  
Israel, or a business dependent upon Israeli products, or Israeli  
developed technology was aghast.

It's one thing to not have a Jew in your country club or marry your  
children, but it's completely different to have your stock portfolio  
become worthless paper.

RMS's comments on Steve Jobs where much nicer than he was given credit  
for. However the press was looking for a way to get rid of him, and  
that was it.

I am a US citizen, I vote in US elections, and I file US tax returns.  
There some things I leave to US residents and if I were a resident of  
Massachusetts I would have filed complaints to the Secretary of State  
and the IRS that RMS's boycott, as President of the FSF, of Israel was  
cause to dissolve the corporation and revoke their tax exempt status.

The founders of the FSF tried to do a legal trick when they  
incorporated to get more ability to "spread their message", but it  
also restricts them from such activity.

I did not file those complaints, but I expect that other people also  
read their articles of incorporation (it's on their web site), spent  
10 seconds with google looking up the law behind it, (wikipedia has a  
good article) and did file complaints.

Geoff.




-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Mon Oct 24 14:02:26 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:02:26 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011, geoffrey mendelson wrote about "Re: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"":
> Amos wrote:
> >Were there echoes of this argument outside Israel?
> 
> Yes, the hi-tech field is both heavily invested in Israel and
> populated by Jews. It spread like wildfire even making the BBC and

I wanted to search for "Richard Stallman Israel" on Google to see what people
have been saying, in English, about this topic, but as I was in the middle of
typing this, and typed "Richard Stallman Is", I was shown the following
completion suggestions:

	"richard stallman is an idiot"
	"richard stallman is crazy"
	"richard stallman is a douchebag"
	"richard stallman is insane"

I obviously don't agree with any of these statements, but it's sad that
apparently this is what people think (or at least, search in Google...).

Anyway, most of the results of my intended query appear to be Israeli or
Jewish sources. It doesn't appear like the whole world had any interest
in this affair... I wonder if most free software activists are even aware of
it.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                    Monday, Oct 24 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |I have a watch cat! If someone breaks in,
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |she'll watch.


From sara.fink at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 14:19:08 2011
From: sara.fink at gmail.com (sara fink)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:19:08 +0200
Subject: OT:yard sale
In-Reply-To: <CAG4bpDLRpmLLXojZnh5WLnzsu_HmxXPrq=q9Subh2YewEV7aEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG4bpDLRpmLLXojZnh5WLnzsu_HmxXPrq=q9Subh2YewEV7aEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKsgyTa60HrHdMt3UM4fVG03h=dmte=3L4BrT10FLtfDdpue7g@mail.gmail.com>

Where is the sale? Hours?

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 12:40 AM, Meir Michanie <meirgotroot at gmail.com>wrote:

> http://www.riunx.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=yard_sale
>
> 1       PC pentium 4 - Ubuntu   for a beer pack.
> 1       PC Celeron 2 - Ubuntu for       a beer pack.
> 1       Book: Pascal by Dale/Orshalick for      a beer
> 1       Book: Unix unlished - Sys Admin's edition  for  a beer
> 1       Book: Mastering Solaris 8       for a beer
> 1       Book: Hacker's challenge 2      for a beer
> 1       Graphic Card Nvidia 512 MB e-pci  for   a beer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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From raziebe at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 14:42:47 2011
From: raziebe at gmail.com (Raz)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:42:47 +0200
Subject: OT:yard sale
In-Reply-To: <CAKsgyTa60HrHdMt3UM4fVG03h=dmte=3L4BrT10FLtfDdpue7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG4bpDLRpmLLXojZnh5WLnzsu_HmxXPrq=q9Subh2YewEV7aEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKsgyTa60HrHdMt3UM4fVG03h=dmte=3L4BrT10FLtfDdpue7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPB=Z-paCVVXq34vxbvK-W36r8YSfcJ9hC99F_4oc=vPhEjNUg@mail.gmail.com>

wow
you really love beer ...

2011/10/24 sara fink <sara.fink at gmail.com>

> Where is the sale? Hours?
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 12:40 AM, Meir Michanie <meirgotroot at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> http://www.riunx.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=yard_sale
>>
>> 1       PC pentium 4 - Ubuntu   for a beer pack.
>> 1       PC Celeron 2 - Ubuntu for       a beer pack.
>> 1       Book: Pascal by Dale/Orshalick for      a beer
>> 1       Book: Unix unlished - Sys Admin's edition  for  a beer
>> 1       Book: Mastering Solaris 8       for a beer
>> 1       Book: Hacker's challenge 2      for a beer
>> 1       Graphic Card Nvidia 512 MB e-pci  for   a beer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linux-il mailing list
>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
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From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 15:03:33 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:03:33 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>


On Oct 24, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> I obviously don't agree with any of these statements, but it's sad  
> that
> apparently this is what people think (or at least, search in  
> Google...).
>
> Anyway, most of the results of my intended query appear to be  
> Israeli or
> Jewish sources. It doesn't appear like the whole world had any  
> interest
> in this affair... I wonder if most free software activists are even  
> aware of
> it.


ROTFL. The vagaries of using google. I put in "richard stallman  
boycott israel" and 3,420 results.

They are aware. Very aware.

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 15:13:00 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:13:00 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>


On Oct 24, 2011, at 3:03 PM, geoffrey mendelson wrote:

>
> On Oct 24, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Nadav Har'El wrote:
>> I obviously don't agree with any of these statements, but it's sad  
>> that
>> apparently this is what people think (or at least, search in  
>> Google...).
>>
>> Anyway, most of the results of my intended query appear to be  
>> Israeli or
>> Jewish sources. It doesn't appear like the whole world had any  
>> interest
>> in this affair... I wonder if most free software activists are even  
>> aware of
>> it.
>
>
> ROTFL. The vagaries of using google. I put in "richard stallman  
> boycott israel" and 3,420 results.
>
> They are aware. Very aware.


BTW, "richard stallman israel boycott" yields 42,600 results.

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From meirgotroot at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 16:03:22 2011
From: meirgotroot at gmail.com (Meir Michanie)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:03:22 +0100
Subject: OT:yard sale
In-Reply-To: <CAKsgyTa60HrHdMt3UM4fVG03h=dmte=3L4BrT10FLtfDdpue7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG4bpDLRpmLLXojZnh5WLnzsu_HmxXPrq=q9Subh2YewEV7aEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKsgyTa60HrHdMt3UM4fVG03h=dmte=3L4BrT10FLtfDdpue7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG4bpDK-z7t-X3wS=UWAw6L=RJEctN9y1iqihk7YPc4MK9-wcA@mail.gmail.com>

Petach Tikva, evenings.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:19 PM, sara fink <sara.fink at gmail.com> wrote:
> Where is the sale? Hours?
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 12:40 AM, Meir Michanie <meirgotroot at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.riunx.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=yard_sale
>>
>> 1 ? ? ? PC pentium 4 - Ubuntu ? for a beer pack.
>> 1 ? ? ? PC Celeron 2 - Ubuntu for ? ? ? a beer pack.
>> 1 ? ? ? Book: Pascal by Dale/Orshalick for ? ? ?a beer
>> 1 ? ? ? Book: Unix unlished - Sys Admin's edition ?for ?a beer
>> 1 ? ? ? Book: Mastering Solaris 8 ? ? ? for a beer
>> 1 ? ? ? Book: Hacker's challenge 2 ? ? ?for a beer
>> 1 ? ? ? Graphic Card Nvidia 512 MB e-pci ?for ? a beer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linux-il mailing list
>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>


From meirgotroot at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 16:05:23 2011
From: meirgotroot at gmail.com (Meir Michanie)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:05:23 +0100
Subject: OT:yard sale
In-Reply-To: <CAPB=Z-paCVVXq34vxbvK-W36r8YSfcJ9hC99F_4oc=vPhEjNUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG4bpDLRpmLLXojZnh5WLnzsu_HmxXPrq=q9Subh2YewEV7aEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKsgyTa60HrHdMt3UM4fVG03h=dmte=3L4BrT10FLtfDdpue7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPB=Z-paCVVXq34vxbvK-W36r8YSfcJ9hC99F_4oc=vPhEjNUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG4bpDK_c1bdLN=NDjTMhNKd6eQKt9scL-mWOHeXo-SpPu9z-A@mail.gmail.com>

It is an anti-FSF campaign. :)
I guess that if it not worthy a beer then it is chunk and I am getting
old and attached to material stuff.

Cheers.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Raz <raziebe at gmail.com> wrote:
> wow
> you really love beer ...
>
> 2011/10/24 sara fink <sara.fink at gmail.com>
>>
>> Where is the sale? Hours?
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 12:40 AM, Meir Michanie <meirgotroot at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.riunx.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=yard_sale
>>>
>>> 1 ? ? ? PC pentium 4 - Ubuntu ? for a beer pack.
>>> 1 ? ? ? PC Celeron 2 - Ubuntu for ? ? ? a beer pack.
>>> 1 ? ? ? Book: Pascal by Dale/Orshalick for ? ? ?a beer
>>> 1 ? ? ? Book: Unix unlished - Sys Admin's edition ?for ?a beer
>>> 1 ? ? ? Book: Mastering Solaris 8 ? ? ? for a beer
>>> 1 ? ? ? Book: Hacker's challenge 2 ? ? ?for a beer
>>> 1 ? ? ? Graphic Card Nvidia 512 MB e-pci ?for ? a beer
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Linux-il mailing list
>>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linux-il mailing list
>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>
>
>


From mordecha.behar at mail.huji.ac.il  Mon Oct 24 16:13:35 2011
From: mordecha.behar at mail.huji.ac.il (Mordecha Behar)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:13:35 +0200
Subject: OT:yard sale
In-Reply-To: <CAPB=Z-paCVVXq34vxbvK-W36r8YSfcJ9hC99F_4oc=vPhEjNUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG4bpDLRpmLLXojZnh5WLnzsu_HmxXPrq=q9Subh2YewEV7aEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKsgyTa60HrHdMt3UM4fVG03h=dmte=3L4BrT10FLtfDdpue7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPB=Z-paCVVXq34vxbvK-W36r8YSfcJ9hC99F_4oc=vPhEjNUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHp+bBii3RM4YVa4E=r4mgUbougrKh2v3v0bdQx5m=CnJ7W3Lg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/24 Raz <raziebe at gmail.com>

> wow
> you really love beer ...
>
>
Um, because it's "free as in..."


>
> 2011/10/24 sara fink <sara.fink at gmail.com>
>
>> Where is the sale? Hours?
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 12:40 AM, Meir Michanie <meirgotroot at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.riunx.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=yard_sale
>>>
>>> 1       PC pentium 4 - Ubuntu   for a beer pack.
>>> 1       PC Celeron 2 - Ubuntu for       a beer pack.
>>> 1       Book: Pascal by Dale/Orshalick for      a beer
>>> 1       Book: Unix unlished - Sys Admin's edition  for  a beer
>>> 1       Book: Mastering Solaris 8       for a beer
>>> 1       Book: Hacker's challenge 2      for a beer
>>> 1       Graphic Card Nvidia 512 MB e-pci  for   a beer
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Linux-il mailing list
>>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linux-il mailing list
>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
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From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 16:20:50 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:20:50 +0200
Subject: OT: one's compliment 8 bit checksum
Message-ID: <BFD2AA04-D0C4-4681-BC23-660DE8D3BD7D@gmail.com>

I need to calculate a one's compliment 8 bit (not 16 bit, not 2's  
compliment) checksum.

What would be really nice is a C subroutine I can call passing the  
number of bytes and a pointer to the data.

Any license I can use will be ok, I don't plan on distributing it, but  
if I do, source code will be included.

It's for use in a program that changes one field in a control file  
that is loaded into the ROM of a 1980's vintage embedded system.

Thanks in advance,

Geoff.
-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From dotancohen at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 16:42:28 2011
From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:42:28 +0200
Subject: OT:yard sale
In-Reply-To: <CAHp+bBii3RM4YVa4E=r4mgUbougrKh2v3v0bdQx5m=CnJ7W3Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG4bpDLRpmLLXojZnh5WLnzsu_HmxXPrq=q9Subh2YewEV7aEA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKsgyTa60HrHdMt3UM4fVG03h=dmte=3L4BrT10FLtfDdpue7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPB=Z-paCVVXq34vxbvK-W36r8YSfcJ9hC99F_4oc=vPhEjNUg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHp+bBii3RM4YVa4E=r4mgUbougrKh2v3v0bdQx5m=CnJ7W3Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKDXFkP_ryNf+kvB-7xmfJzyX8w3MGxeuoCyE2KxmtSZSCZp1w@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/24 Mordecha Behar <mordecha.behar at mail.huji.ac.il>:
> Um, because it's "free as in..."
>

Right, the expression should be "free as in sex". When you have had
beer, there is none left for anyone else. When you have had sex,
someone else can come along and have some. Also, beer is _expected_ to
cost money and be of a secret formula. Sex is best when its free, and
when you know exactly what is in it.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com


From wordz2u at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 17:24:54 2011
From: wordz2u at gmail.com (Steve G.)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:24:54 -0600
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>

Either way, I am not going to participate in anything that lends credence to
FSF. Quite frankly, at least  MS are not openly anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic,
or anti 'the bad Jews/Israeli'.

Let someone more credible start a petition, and I will surely sign.

F-FSF.

Z.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:13 AM, geoffrey mendelson <
geoffreymendelson at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Oct 24, 2011, at 3:03 PM, geoffrey mendelson wrote:
>
>
>> On Oct 24, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Nadav Har'El wrote:
>>
>>> I obviously don't agree with any of these statements, but it's sad that
>>> apparently this is what people think (or at least, search in Google...).
>>>
>>> Anyway, most of the results of my intended query appear to be Israeli or
>>> Jewish sources. It doesn't appear like the whole world had any interest
>>> in this affair... I wonder if most free software activists are even aware
>>> of
>>> it.
>>>
>>
>>
>> ROTFL. The vagaries of using google. I put in "richard stallman boycott
>> israel" and 3,420 results.
>>
>> They are aware. Very aware.
>>
>
>
> BTW, "richard stallman israel boycott" yields 42,600 results.
>
>
> Geoff.
>
> --
> Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
> My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/**mailman/listinfo/linux-il<http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il>
>



-- 
Sincerely,

Steve

http://www.words2u.net - GPS points and tracks (mainly in Costa Rica)

http://www.words2u.net/recipes - Recipe collection
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From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Mon Oct 24 18:03:59 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:03:59 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111024160359.GA11813@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011, Steve G. wrote about "Re: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"":
> at least  MS are not openly anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic,
> or anti 'the bad Jews/Israeli'.

Indeed. I still remember very vividly a meeting held 11 years ago in the
ISOC-IL offices, about the sad state of Hebrew support on the Web.
The conclusion was that, sadly but truely, Microsoft was the only one that
bothered fixing its browser (IE 5, at the time) to support new standards
that will help Israeli users - namely "logical order" Hebrew text (Unicode's
bidi, see http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr9/tr9-1.html).

Our knight in shiny armor, Netscape, did nothing to solve the our (Israelis')
problems, and forced us to use the ridiculous "visual order" method.
Mozilla, the recently announced free spin-off from Netscape, also didn't help.
IBM, that volunteered to solve this problem in Netscape, proposed a patch,
but Netscape didn't even care enough about us Israelis to apply it.
It would take several more years until Isralis finally had a free browser that
supported logical-order (bidi) Hebrew.

So despite all its other flaws, Microsoft does indeed care about Israel and
Israelis.


-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                    Monday, Oct 24 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Seen on a box of animal crackers: "Do not
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |eat if seal is broken."


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Mon Oct 24 18:12:24 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:12:24 +0200
Subject: OT: one's compliment 8 bit checksum
In-Reply-To: <BFD2AA04-D0C4-4681-BC23-660DE8D3BD7D@gmail.com>
References: <BFD2AA04-D0C4-4681-BC23-660DE8D3BD7D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtSvnNMV-aO2Z1p53NO6mg0d7M88gB4QRm_pDjXLGWLzzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:20 PM, geoffrey mendelson
<geoffreymendelson at gmail.com> wrote:
> I need to calculate a one's compliment 8 bit (not 16 bit, not 2's
> compliment) checksum.
>
> What would be really nice is a C subroutine I can call passing the number of
> bytes and a pointer to the data.
>
> Any license I can use will be ok, I don't plan on distributing it, but if I
> do, source code will be included.
>
> It's for use in a program that changes one field in a control file that is
> loaded into the ROM of a 1980's vintage embedded system.

This shouldn't be too difficult in general but this last sentence
makes me ask a couple of important questions:

1. Is the platform 8 bit or 16 bit or 32 bit? I am asking because as
far as I understand the algorithm it involves the carry bit.

2. It is not clear to me if endianness is relevant (it is for TCP
checksums but those are 16 bit). At least give it an extra 15 seconds
of thought if the platform is weird-endian.

Assuming 16+ bit platform here is what - I think - the code may look
like. Others, more experienced than me, may find it incorrect but then
they will post corrections. I only compiled it, I never ran it before
"shipping". You may consider it under MIT license, but I don't regard
it original work, for obvious reasons. I do not know if the platform
(the cross-compiler?) has stdint.h, but one way or another you need an
8-bit unsigned integer type.

#include <stdint.h>

uint8_t cksum(const uint8_t* msg, int noct) {
	uint8_t  sum = 0;
	while (noct-- > 0) {
		sum += *(msg++);
	}
	/* if carry bits are produced add them (sum >> 8) back
	 * to the LSBs */
	sum = (sum >> 8) + (sum & 0xFF);
	/* we may still have a carry bit, so do it the second time;
	 * it can only overflow once: FF+FF=1FE -> FE+1=FF */
	sum += (sum >> 8);
	/* return inverted bits */
	return ~sum;
}


-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From wordz2u at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 19:37:39 2011
From: wordz2u at gmail.com (Steve G.)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:37:39 -0600
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <CAJAZ2DQv0aXa+deGN901Si2ZYU-5gc00Ws5GD=xL-JW8670eGA@mail.gmail.com>

Shlomi,

1. Thank you for the education

2. I am not trying to negate the validity of their argument (or for that
matter to support it). I am saying that I will have nothing to do with them,
their drives, their server, and any of their software that is not already
provisioned by my distro, unless I can't live with it.

And quite frankly, I don't care whether the FSF and RMS are one and the same
or not. Until they kick the piece of waste out, they should go sell their
stuff somewhere else.

There are plenty of other organizations to support.

Z.
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From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Mon Oct 24 19:26:41 2011
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:26:41 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>

Hi Steve,

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:24:54 -0600
"Steve G." <wordz2u at gmail.com> wrote:

> Either way, I am not going to participate in anything that lends credence to
> FSF. Quite frankly, at least  MS are not openly anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic,
> or anti 'the bad Jews/Israeli'.
> 

Well, from what I understood, it's just that Stallman in his visit to
the Palestinian Authority, complied to the demands of his Palestinian sponsors,
and wouldn't lecture at a place that didn't support the boycott of the Israeli
academia. That wasn't a global position of the Free Software Foundation, who
certainly isn't anti-Semitic (see
http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/politics/define-zionism/ about a lot of this confusion.). 

> Let someone more credible start a petition, and I will surely sign.
> 

Well, the petition is hosted on the FSF server, but otherwise it isn't
trying to promote them. And it's possible other entities won't start competing
petitions so as to not fragment the votes, so you'll never get to voice your
support.

Also see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

> F-FSF.
> 
> Z.
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:13 AM, geoffrey mendelson <
> geoffreymendelson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Oct 24, 2011, at 3:03 PM, geoffrey mendelson wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Oct 24, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Nadav Har'El wrote:
> >>
> >>> I obviously don't agree with any of these statements, but it's sad that
> >>> apparently this is what people think (or at least, search in Google...).
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, most of the results of my intended query appear to be Israeli or
> >>> Jewish sources. It doesn't appear like the whole world had any interest
> >>> in this affair... I wonder if most free software activists are even aware
> >>> of
> >>> it.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ROTFL. The vagaries of using google. I put in "richard stallman boycott
> >> israel" and 3,420 results.
> >>
> >> They are aware. Very aware.
> >>
> >
> >
> > BTW, "richard stallman israel boycott" yields 42,600 results.
> >
> >
> > Geoff.
> >
> > --
> > Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
> > My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________**_________________
> > Linux-il mailing list
> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/**mailman/listinfo/linux-il<http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il>
> >
> 
> 
> 



-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
Understand what Open Source is - http://shlom.in/oss-fs

CPAN thrives *because* of the unfettered uploading of shit, not in spite of it.
    ? Andy Lester

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .


From tzafrir at cohens.org.il  Mon Oct 24 20:32:54 2011
From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:32:54 +0000
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CAJAZ2DQv0aXa+deGN901Si2ZYU-5gc00Ws5GD=xL-JW8670eGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<CAJAZ2DQv0aXa+deGN901Si2ZYU-5gc00Ws5GD=xL-JW8670eGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111024183254.GD31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:37:39AM -0600, Steve G. wrote:
> Shlomi,
> 
> 1. Thank you for the education
> 
> 2. I am not trying to negate the validity of their argument (or for that
> matter to support it). I am saying that I will have nothing to do with them,
> their drives, their server, and any of their software that is not already
> provisioned by my distro, unless I can't live with it.
> 
> And quite frankly, I don't care whether the FSF and RMS are one and the same
> or not. Until they kick the piece of waste out, they should go sell their
> stuff somewhere else.
> 
> There are plenty of other organizations to support.

People's Front of Judea is one.


-- 
Tzafrir Cohen         | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il |                    | a Mutt's
tzafrir at cohens.org.il |                    |  best
tzafrir at debian.org    |                    | friend


From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Mon Oct 24 23:18:43 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:18:43 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <6623FF08-157E-41E3-9C87-2861AF886DE7@gmail.com>


On Oct 24, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

> Well, from what I understood, it's just that Stallman in his visit to
> the Palestinian Authority, complied to the demands of his  
> Palestinian sponsors,
> and wouldn't lecture at a place that didn't support the boycott of  
> the Israeli
> academia. That wasn't a global position of the Free Software  
> Foundation, who
> certainly isn't anti-Semitic (see
> http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/politics/define-zionism/ about  
> a lot of this confusion.).


You understand wrong. Since Stallman signed his messages as President  
of the FSF, they are legally the position of the FSF.

Geoff.
-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Mon Oct 24 23:28:15 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:28:15 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <20111024183254.GD31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>
References: <E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<CAJAZ2DQv0aXa+deGN901Si2ZYU-5gc00Ws5GD=xL-JW8670eGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024183254.GD31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>
Message-ID: <20111024212815.GA26256@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011, Tzafrir Cohen wrote about "Re: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"":
> > There are plenty of other organizations to support.
> 
> People's Front of Judea is one.

No way, I hate them! I support the Judean People's Front!

(If someone doesn't understand the joke, you haven't seen the movie
"Life of Brian" :-)).

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                    Monday, Oct 24 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |"We don't see things as they are, we see
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |them as we are." -- Anais Nin


From wordz2u at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 00:28:01 2011
From: wordz2u at gmail.com (Steve G.)
Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:28:01 -0600
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <20111024212815.GA26256@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<CAJAZ2DQv0aXa+deGN901Si2ZYU-5gc00Ws5GD=xL-JW8670eGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024183254.GD31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>
	<20111024212815.GA26256@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <CAJAZ2DQx6mSuZX9KPa36JVF4u3qo2F5COdeL5gHOFaEUo=X86A@mail.gmail.com>

I thought I got the joke, but was not sure if it was Monty Python, so thanks
for clarifying.

Now a technical question - wouldn't we still be able to run Linux as a
virtual machine under windows? So what's the big deal? Practically all
laptops today, and most desktops, come with some flavor of windows. All one
needs to do is use a VMM from Oracle, MS, VmWare, Citrix/XEN, Parallels,
etc. and  use it to run Linux! It may reduce performance a little, but quite
frankly, today's computers are so over-specified for their usage (do I
really need a 3 core CPU to browse the net? most of what I do is i/o and
networking, not computation).

So I can have my cake, and Microsoft can have theirs too. The only possible
impact is that selection of Linux compatible machines would be limited to
those manufactured with Linux in mind, so I would probably have to pay more
instead of getting whatever is on sale. On the positive side, though, unlike
all my discounted hardware, these would work under Linux right off the bat,
instead of a year later (yes, finally my Toshiba can use the earphones under
Linux, not just the tinny speakers, as was the case till now! On the other
hand, Unity 3D still hard freezes my computer, or at least my Xserver on
every machine I tested...)

Let the flames begin.

Z.
On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 3:28 PM, Nadav Har'El <nyh at math.technion.ac.il>wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011, Tzafrir Cohen wrote about "Re: FSF Campaign against
> Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"":
> > > There are plenty of other organizations to support.
> >
> > People's Front of Judea is one.
>
> No way, I hate them! I support the Judean People's Front!
>
> (If someone doesn't understand the joke, you haven't seen the movie
> "Life of Brian" :-)).
>
> --
> Nadav Har'El                        |                    Monday, Oct 24
> 2011,
> nyh at math.technion.ac.il
> |-----------------------------------------
> Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |"We don't see things as they are, we
> see
> http://nadav.harel.org.il           |them as we are." -- Anais Nin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>



-- 
Sincerely,

Steve

http://www.words2u.net - GPS points and tracks (mainly in Costa Rica)

http://www.words2u.net/recipes - Recipe collection
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From aronovitch at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 01:38:36 2011
From: aronovitch at gmail.com (Amit Aronovitch)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 01:38:36 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <20111024160359.GA11813@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024160359.GA11813@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <CANFEmtf7p5qQgKt0OZJ0iLp6NspeORDgT5s_u0ydoGJ+ADQDiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:03 PM, Nadav Har'El <nyh at math.technion.ac.il>wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011, Steve G. wrote about "Re: FSF Campaign against
> Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"":
> > at least  MS are not openly anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic,
> > or anti 'the bad Jews/Israeli'.
>
> Indeed. I still remember very vividly a meeting held 11 years ago in the
> ISOC-IL offices, about the sad state of Hebrew support on the Web.
> The conclusion was that, sadly but truely, Microsoft was the only one that
> bothered fixing its browser (IE 5, at the time) to support new standards
> that will help Israeli users - namely "logical order" Hebrew text
> (Unicode's
> bidi, see http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr9/tr9-1.html).
>
> Our knight in shiny armor, Netscape, did nothing to solve the our
> (Israelis')
> problems, and forced us to use the ridiculous "visual order" method.
>

Yeah, but Netscape was far from being a knight.
 Royalty free browser is fine, support over more than one OS even better,
but that's not free software.
Uncontrolled race of un-standardized/half-baked html "extensions" - as bad
as their competitor, if not worse.
It only donned armor on its deathbed (by freeing the code and forming
Mozilla).
???? ????? ?????

Mozilla, the recently announced free spin-off from Netscape, also didn't
> help.
>

Takes time for new FOSS project to digest a large inherited codebase (and
weren't they busy with infrastructure work, such as XUL, at the time?)

IBM, that volunteered to solve this problem in Netscape, proposed a patch,
> but Netscape didn't even care enough about us Israelis to apply it.
> It would take several more years until Isralis finally had a free browser
> that
> supported logical-order (bidi) Hebrew.
>
> So despite all its other flaws, Microsoft does indeed care about Israel and
> Israelis.
>
>
People care. Corporations seek profit for investors. Some people would argue
that this is more a virtue than a flaw.
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From aronovitch at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 02:45:26 2011
From: aronovitch at gmail.com (Amit Aronovitch)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 02:45:26 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFEmtdUqLvcT1Mbo1c2CS_VCwnhzj-Vj0W90jCxqCCVogprjg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:51 PM, geoffrey mendelson <
geoffreymendelson at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Oct 24, 2011, at 1:56 AM, Amos Shapira wrote:
>
>
> I wrote:
>
>>
>>> The FSF is struggling to regain some semblance of public support after
>>> RMS's
>>> disastrous FSF boycott of Israel and his comments about Steve Jobs. Do
>>> the
>>> world a favor and let the FSF die with dignity, instead of being
>>> remembered
>>> as a bunch of racist FUDslinging lunatics.
>>>
>>
>>
> Amos wrote:
>
>> Were there echoes of this argument outside Israel?
>>
>
>
> Yes, the hi-tech field is both heavily invested in Israel and populated by
> Jews. It spread like wildfire even making the BBC and other media. So while
> people who support the "Palestinian cause", where cheering that he made a
> stand, everyone with investment in Israel, or a business dependent upon
> Israeli products, or Israeli developed technology was aghast.
>
> It's one thing to not have a Jew in your country club or marry your
> children, but it's completely different to have your stock portfolio become
> worthless paper.
>
> RMS's comments on Steve Jobs where much nicer than he was given credit for.
> However the press was looking for a way to get rid of him, and that was it.
>
> I am a US citizen, I vote in US elections, and I file US tax returns. There
> some things I leave to US residents and if I were a resident of
> Massachusetts I would have filed complaints to the Secretary of State and
> the IRS that RMS's boycott, as President of the FSF, of Israel was cause to
> dissolve the corporation and revoke their tax exempt status.
>
> The founders of the FSF tried to do a legal trick when they incorporated to
> get more ability to "spread their message", but it also restricts them from
> such activity.
>
> I did not file those complaints, but I expect that other people also read
> their articles of incorporation (it's on their web site), spent 10 seconds
> with google looking up the law behind it, (wikipedia has a good article) and
> did file complaints.
>
>
>
Sorry for not following up on the legal issues (getting too tired right
now), but I thought that Israel was the country that tried to legislate a
non-boycott law :-)

If US law forbade boycotts, how comes Pepsi or McDonnald's were not
dissolved for participating in the Arab boycott? (and this was full boycott,
not merely a
single-visit-personal-compliance by the foundation's president).

I need to know that, because I'm considering boycotting emails from people
that boycott organizations whose presidents boycott countries that pass laws
against boycotting Israel.

If some of the people involved in this chain are US citizens (or Israeli, or
both), would I get into trouble?

   (yet another) AA

[Disclaimer: This message does not express a real intention, by the author
or other associated parties, to participate in any form of boycott. Just
mild confusion, some amusement, and moderate insomnia]
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From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 07:14:40 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 07:14:40 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CANFEmtdUqLvcT1Mbo1c2CS_VCwnhzj-Vj0W90jCxqCCVogprjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<CANFEmtdUqLvcT1Mbo1c2CS_VCwnhzj-Vj0W90jCxqCCVogprjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CD19B0E3-C730-4006-BF3B-FC3370C18226@gmail.com>


On Oct 25, 2011, at 2:45 AM, Amit Aronovitch wrote:
> Sorry for not following up on the legal issues (getting too tired  
> right now), but I thought that Israel was the country that tried to  
> legislate a non-boycott law :-)
>
> If US law forbade boycotts, how comes Pepsi or McDonnald's were not  
> dissolved for participating in the Arab boycott? (and this was full  
> boycott, not merely a
> single-visit-personal-compliance by the foundation's president).
>
> I need to know that, because I'm considering boycotting emails from  
> people that boycott organizations whose presidents boycott countries  
> that pass laws against boycotting Israel.
>
> If some of the people involved in this chain are US citizens (or  
> Israeli, or both), would I get into trouble?
>
>    (yet another) AA



It's not the boycott itself, it's that a boycott of Israel is outside  
of the activities that the FSF is chartered to conduct.

Because of the type of corporation they chose to incorporate as, they  
can only do political actions as  corporation related to free software  
(check their articles of incorporation and the relevant laws, IANAL).

For example (but don't hold me to it) they could boycott Apple because  
it uses a closed OS, but not because it uses child labor in China.

So because RMS claimed that AS PRESIDENT OF THE FSF he was boycotting  
Israel because of its treatment of Palestinian Arabs, he was  
performing a political activity that they were forbidden to do.

If he had claimed that he was doing it as RMS, private citizen, or  
because free software was being blocked at the "borders", Israel was  
harming Palestinian Arabs for use of free software, etc it would have  
been different.

BUT he dragged the FSF into it, and that was not legal.

Geoff.



-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Tue Oct 25 09:23:24 2011
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:23:24 +0200
Subject: Israeli Mageia Linux Mirror
Message-ID: <20111025092324.169003d2@lap.shlomifish.org>

Hello,

I'm using Mageia Linux, the community fork of Mandriva Linux, and since there
isn't an Israeli mirror, I've been getting crappy bandwidth from its
international mirrors[1], which has been disrupting my work as a Mageia Linux
packager and user. I believe there are other users of Mageia Linux in Israel.

Please set up a local mirror on mirror.isoc.org.il:

http://www.mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirror.readme

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

[1] - When I talked about it with a support persons of my ISP, they said it's a
known and deliberate issue and that I should pay extra for the "Gamer's Package"
to get priority for international traffic.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
"The Human Hacking Field Guide" - http://shlom.in/hhfg

A golfed Java program will be longer than non?golf Perl or Python code.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .


From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 09:51:08 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:51:08 +0200
Subject: Israeli Mageia Linux Mirror
In-Reply-To: <20111025092324.169003d2@lap.shlomifish.org>
References: <20111025092324.169003d2@lap.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <F85EB0F1-FE4E-4C5C-952A-79A4981F9DE1@gmail.com>


On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:23 AM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

> [1] - When I talked about it with a support persons of my ISP, they  
> said it's a
> known and deliberate issue and that I should pay extra for the  
> "Gamer's Package"
> to get priority for international traffic.


It's not a deliberate attempt to screw you, or prevent you doing your  
good work, or closet support of Microsoft. It's their best guess  
attempt at equally sharing a scarce resource (international bandwidth)  
among all of their users.

Paying for a gamer's package won't help much, depending upon the ISP,  
most of them give you better INTERACTIVE performance at the cost of  
poorer downloads, etc.

My advice to you is to schedule you work so that uploads and downloads  
are done at off hours. 012's off hours are around 3am to 3pm, for  
example. One day, as a test, I tried to see how much I could download  
in a day using a 15mbit NGN line and a regular 012 account. I was able  
to get over 50g (50 gigabytes) of download, 99+% during the off peak  
period.

Geoff.
-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From tzafrir at cohens.org.il  Tue Oct 25 10:05:58 2011
From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:05:58 +0000
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CAJAZ2DQx6mSuZX9KPa36JVF4u3qo2F5COdeL5gHOFaEUo=X86A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<CAJAZ2DQv0aXa+deGN901Si2ZYU-5gc00Ws5GD=xL-JW8670eGA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024183254.GD31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>
	<20111024212815.GA26256@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CAJAZ2DQx6mSuZX9KPa36JVF4u3qo2F5COdeL5gHOFaEUo=X86A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111025080557.GE31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 04:28:01PM -0600, Steve G. wrote:
> I thought I got the joke, but was not sure if it was Monty Python, so thanks
> for clarifying.
> 
> Now a technical question - wouldn't we still be able to run Linux as a
> virtual machine under windows? 

Maybe. But this is a very grave limitation, and I would really hate to
have it. It makes the guest OS inferior, avoids direct access to the
hardware for the most part. I wouldn't buy such a hardware.

Oh, and given MS's past history with licensing, I would expect funny
games in the future if this were to be the norm (e.g. machines with the
vmx bit enabled would start to cost more).

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen         | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il |                    | a Mutt's
tzafrir at cohens.org.il |                    |  best
tzafrir at debian.org    |                    | friend


From tzafrir at cohens.org.il  Tue Oct 25 10:07:30 2011
From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:07:30 +0000
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <6623FF08-157E-41E3-9C87-2861AF886DE7@gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<6623FF08-157E-41E3-9C87-2861AF886DE7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111025080730.GF31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:18:43PM +0200, geoffrey mendelson wrote:
>
> On Oct 24, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
>
>> Well, from what I understood, it's just that Stallman in his visit to
>> the Palestinian Authority, complied to the demands of his Palestinian 
>> sponsors,
>> and wouldn't lecture at a place that didn't support the boycott of the 
>> Israeli
>> academia. That wasn't a global position of the Free Software  
>> Foundation, who
>> certainly isn't anti-Semitic (see
>> http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/politics/define-zionism/ about a 
>> lot of this confusion.).
>
>
> You understand wrong. Since Stallman signed his messages as President of 
> the FSF, they are legally the position of the FSF.

IANAL and thus IDCALI.

Stallman did this as a private person.

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen         | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il |                    | a Mutt's
tzafrir at cohens.org.il |                    |  best
tzafrir at debian.org    |                    | friend


From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 10:36:44 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:36:44 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <20111025080730.GF31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<6623FF08-157E-41E3-9C87-2861AF886DE7@gmail.com>
	<20111025080730.GF31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>
Message-ID: <D88E2616-F541-4A29-8653-0355A74546C5@gmail.com>


On Oct 25, 2011, at 10:07 AM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> IANAL and thus IDCALI.
>

Sorry, I don't understand the acronym, nor could I find an explanation  
that fit.

> Stallman did this as a private person.


NO, he did not. Here's an example of his signature from his emails,  
taken from a conversation on this list back when it was relevant. You  
are welcome to look them up in the archive:

	Dr Richard Stallman President,
	Free Software Foundation
	51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110
There can be no doubt that he said it as President of the FSF, and  
which FSF he was speaking as.
To be blunt, have you ever been an officer of a corporation in the US?
Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Tue Oct 25 11:23:45 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:23:45 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CANFEmtf7p5qQgKt0OZJ0iLp6NspeORDgT5s_u0ydoGJ+ADQDiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024160359.GA11813@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CANFEmtf7p5qQgKt0OZJ0iLp6NspeORDgT5s_u0ydoGJ+ADQDiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111025092345.GA22751@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011, Amit Aronovitch wrote about "Re: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"":
> People care. Corporations seek profit for investors. Some people would argue
> that this is more a virtue than a flaw.

Yes, all corporations seek profit, but like the Perl moto says, "there is more
than one way to do it". One company can decide that it can make more money by
selling stuff that Israelis want (this is the way that Microsoft went, almost
from the start), another company can decide that it can't be bothered with this
small market (this is the way Apple went for many years, and many of its
services still are unavailable in Israel), and a third company can decide to
boycott Israel completely, because selling in Israel will actually cause it
to lose money (e.g., because of the Arab Boycott).

So while companies that chose the first path - like Microsoft - aren't saints,
they should at least be commended for chosing this path, and not one of the
other two.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                   Tuesday, Oct 25 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |A conclusion is simply the place where
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |you got tired of thinking.


From stan.goodman at hashkedim.com  Tue Oct 25 10:51:36 2011
From: stan.goodman at hashkedim.com (Stan Goodman)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 10:51:36 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <20111025080730.GF31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<6623FF08-157E-41E3-9C87-2861AF886DE7@gmail.com>
	<20111025080730.GF31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>
Message-ID: <201110251051.36307.stan.goodman@hashkedim.com>

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 10:07:30 Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:18:43PM +0200, geoffrey mendelson wrote:
> > On Oct 24, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> >> Well, from what I understood, it's just that Stallman in his visit
> >> to the Palestinian Authority, complied to the demands of his
> >> Palestinian sponsors,
> >> and wouldn't lecture at a place that didn't support the boycott of
> >> the Israeli
> >> academia. That wasn't a global position of the Free Software
> >> Foundation, who
> >> certainly isn't anti-Semitic (see
> >> http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/politics/define-zionism/
> >> about a lot of this confusion.).
> > 
> > You understand wrong. Since Stallman signed his messages as
> > President of the FSF, they are legally the position of the FSF.
> 
> IANAL and thus IDCALI.
> 
> Stallman did this as a private person.

He was in the Middle East to speak as an officer of FSF; he cancelled 
his talk to the Israel group at the behest of the Jordanian group, which 
had a political axe to grind. It doesn't matter if there were signed 
letters or not, and certainly not on what stationery they were written. 
The basic fact is that he adopted the illegitmate demand of the 
Jordanian group and cancelled for an abhorent excuse. That could not 
have been done as a private person.
-- 
Stan Goodman
Qiryat Tiv'on
Israel


From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 11:53:57 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:53:57 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <20111025092345.GA22751@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024160359.GA11813@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CANFEmtf7p5qQgKt0OZJ0iLp6NspeORDgT5s_u0ydoGJ+ADQDiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111025092345.GA22751@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
Message-ID: <EF1D6D4C-2492-4136-99CF-0651D8307711@gmail.com>


On Oct 25, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Nadav Har'El wrote:
>  another company can decide that it can't be bothered with this
> small market (this is the way Apple went for many years, and many of  
> its
> services still are unavailable in Israel),

That's simply untrue. Apple for whatever reason it chose, sold an  
exclusive franchise to a company called YEDA about 27 years ago. When  
it expired, they chose to sell another one to a new company iDigital,  
which happens to be part owned by the President's son.

They do that in many countries because of tax and other considerations.

What products are sold in Israel or not is up to iDigital. They have  
to commit to a certain level of sales and support before Apple will  
consider letting them sell products. This requires an investment in  
sending technicians overseas to learn how to maintain products,  
training sales and support people, producing sales and user  
literature, etc.

Some products are not sold here because they are phased in, for  
example the iPhone 4s, but that's common around the world.

For example, someone I know went to Office Depot the first day they  
were selling legally imported iPads and a person from iDigital was  
there answering questions and doing demos.  The iPad came out of the  
box with Hebrew support.

I don't know anything about Apple II's, etc, but when I purchased my  
first MAC in 1990 (I was using them at work before that), it was in  
the US. It did not come with Hebrew support, but you could download  
for free (or get it from a user group if they had it) a Hebrew  
localized version of MacOS. I assume it was available here for free.

BTW, despite what many people say, Steve Jobs was very supportive of  
open source. The actual MacOS is open source (though with a different  
license). The GUI and the apps are not, but that is a different issue.  
Every version of MacOS X based upon UNIX is. It also comes with a  
suite of developer tools including gcc (now an optional download or a  
free app from the app store) and X windows, so you could in theory,  
boot the OS, go into X windows and live there running open source  
programs, without ever running a closed source program from Apple,  
once you started X.

In fact I have a particularly pesky Windows program I need to run on  
my MAC, and I run it by having compiled an open source version of X  
Windows and WINE and run it by starting a BASH script. Both X and WINE  
were compiled from source. There are versions available in binary, but  
I needed to build them in sync to get the app to work.

Back in the old days (before OSX and the G3 processor), Apple did in  
fact implement Linux on Macs, and it was GPL'ed. In the end they  
decided to not persue it, because they are as you say in the business  
of making money, and the GPL was not compatible with that goal in  
their opinion.

Instead they used BSD with its "artistic license", but it's still open  
source.

BTW, as for boycotts, the only easily recognized Israeli product in  
the MACs in the 1990's was a Tadiran  battery and someone sued Apple  
in the UK for "supporting the genocide of the Palestinians" by using  
them.

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From kaplanlior at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 12:33:51 2011
From: kaplanlior at gmail.com (Lior Kaplan)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:33:51 +0200
Subject: Israeli Mageia Linux Mirror
In-Reply-To: <20111025092324.169003d2@lap.shlomifish.org>
References: <20111025092324.169003d2@lap.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <CAEsznC4PKBThJ6hwW4ecbgssPWEWkhqc5biLawvBjMEx32UFEw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure why are you CCing the linux-il list for a mirror request, but
I'll use it to remind you of the "rules" for such requests - you need to
show demand for a new mirror.

Please find (here, whatsup, or any other public option) people who would
also request or need such a mirror. There are too many distributions to
mirror, and they keep forking (:

Kaplan

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Shlomi Fish <shlomif at shlomifish.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm using Mageia Linux, the community fork of Mandriva Linux, and since
> there
> isn't an Israeli mirror, I've been getting crappy bandwidth from its
> international mirrors[1], which has been disrupting my work as a Mageia
> Linux
> packager and user. I believe there are other users of Mageia Linux in
> Israel.
>
> Please set up a local mirror on mirror.isoc.org.il:
>
> http://www.mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirror.readme
>
> Regards,
>
>        Shlomi Fish
>
> [1] - When I talked about it with a support persons of my ISP, they said
> it's a
> known and deliberate issue and that I should pay extra for the "Gamer's
> Package"
> to get priority for international traffic.
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
> "The Human Hacking Field Guide" - http://shlom.in/hhfg
>
> A golfed Java program will be longer than non?golf Perl or Python code.
>
> Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
>
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From mordecha.behar at mail.huji.ac.il  Tue Oct 25 14:18:24 2011
From: mordecha.behar at mail.huji.ac.il (Mordecha Behar)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 14:18:24 +0200
Subject: Israeli Mageia Linux Mirror
In-Reply-To: <CAEsznC4PKBThJ6hwW4ecbgssPWEWkhqc5biLawvBjMEx32UFEw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111025092324.169003d2@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<CAEsznC4PKBThJ6hwW4ecbgssPWEWkhqc5biLawvBjMEx32UFEw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHp+bBju-UstZmS4z2sPjg6DYYiXc_R+UbL1toWK=Sd1vW+Uzg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Please find (here, whatsup, or any other public option) people who would
> also request or need such a mirror. There are too many distributions to
> mirror, and they keep forking (:
>
> Kaplan
>

I too am a  Mageia user, and I would like to see the repos mirrored on ISOC.
I am fully aware that there are certain restrictions, but let's use this as
a shout-out. Anybody else using (or would like to use) Mageia?
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From tzafrir at cohens.org.il  Tue Oct 25 17:30:35 2011
From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:30:35 +0000
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <D88E2616-F541-4A29-8653-0355A74546C5@gmail.com>
References: <CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024192641.72e13281@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<6623FF08-157E-41E3-9C87-2861AF886DE7@gmail.com>
	<20111025080730.GF31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>
	<D88E2616-F541-4A29-8653-0355A74546C5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111025153035.GH31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 10:36:44AM +0200, geoffrey mendelson wrote:
>
> On Oct 25, 2011, at 10:07 AM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
>> IANAL and thus IDCALI.
>>
>
> Sorry, I don't understand the acronym, nor could I find an explanation  
> that fit.
>
>> Stallman did this as a private person.
>
>
> NO, he did not. Here's an example of his signature from his emails,  
> taken from a conversation on this list back when it was relevant. You  
> are welcome to look them up in the archive:
>
> 	Dr Richard Stallman President,
> 	Free Software Foundation
> 	51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110
> There can be no doubt that he said it as President of the FSF, and which 
> FSF he was speaking as.
> To be blunt, have you ever been an officer of a corporation in the US?
> Geoff.

No. However you have been looking for any anti-Stallman and anti-GPL
excuse for a long time. Well before this afair. I recall all sort of odd
excuses of why not use the GPL. I suppose you'll be tellin us that the
French have declared the GPL illegal:

  https://www.mirbsd.org/permalinks/wlog-10_e20111024-tg.htm#e20111024-tg_wlog-10

Over time I have lerned to just ignore your "legal" arguments.

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen         | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il |                    | a Mutt's
tzafrir at cohens.org.il |                    |  best
tzafrir at debian.org    |                    | friend


From aronovitch at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 17:37:29 2011
From: aronovitch at gmail.com (Amit Aronovitch)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:37:29 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>

Setting aside the amusing political debates and going back to the original
topic - what's the actual status of the UEFI boot issue?

(Following up on the link from Tzafrir's
post:http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/6503.html,
see my comments below )

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:56 AM, Amos Shapira <amos.shapira at gmail.com>wrote:

> On 23 October 2011 22:06, geoffrey mendelson
> <geoffreymendelson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Oct 23, 2011, at 12:28 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> >>
> >> The Free Software Foundation started a campaign called ?Stand up for
> your
> >> freedom to install free software!? about Microsoft's plan to enforce
> >> ?Secure Boot? in the installations of Windows 8, which will prevent
> people
> >> from being able to boot into GNU/Linux, one of the BSD variants, or
> other
> >> operating systems. You can sign it here:
> >>
> >> http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement
> >
> >
> > It's pure FUD.
> > "we are concerned that Microsoft and hardware manufacturers will
> implement
> > these boot restrictions in a way that will prevent users from booting
> > anything other than Windows."
> >
> > Not that they are, or saying they will, or even hinted they will.
>
> I didn't follow the detail but a few weeks ago this made a noise on
> Slashdot and as far as I'm aware Microsoft issued a statement which
> calmed down the activists and it became a none-issue. I didn't follow
> it closely so I might be wrong.
>
>
Can you help locating the MS statement that you describe?

Some relevant details, described in Mathew Garett's post (thanks Tzafrir for
the link), and some of the replies there:

1. Problems with the proposed UEFI boot standard boil down to the fact that
it lacks any means to allow the *owner of the hardware* to edit the list of
trusted keys (load new keys, delete old ones).

2. It seems to me that some aspects of this are in fact a security issue,
which should also be in the interest of Microsoft to solve (e.g. they would
probably want some means to recover in case one of their keys get stolen).

3. Some solution to the problem (a mechanism for loading keys from specially
formatted removable media) will be (is being) suggested by Garrett to UEFI
during this week's "plugfest" http://www.uefi.org/events/

4. Readers of this group should be interested to know that this solution
(whatever other advantages/disadvantages it might have) would allow you to
end up being able to boot kernels (or bootloaders) that you compiled
yourself and signed with your own private key.

Hence: if that MS statement contained some indication that Microsoft would
support such a solution, indeed I see no serious reason to worry.
Either way, we should follow closely for reports from the plugfest
conclusions next week.

   AA
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From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 17:51:59 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:51:59 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CFEC9D4-C2F5-4BC8-B610-0FE826DECAF1@gmail.com>


On Oct 25, 2011, at 5:37 PM, Amit Aronovitch wrote:

> Setting aside the amusing political debates and going back to the  
> original topic - what's the actual status of the UEFI boot issue?


1. Microsoft never said they would do what the FSF claims they would.

2. Microsoft has said, but not in these words, we were not going to do  
this.

If you want a somewhat relevant and entertaining experience watch the  
movie "Minority Report".

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From baruch at tkos.co.il  Tue Oct 25 17:55:33 2011
From: baruch at tkos.co.il (Baruch Siach)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:55:33 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111025155532.GA2434@sapphire.tkos.co.il>

Hi Amit,

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 05:37:29PM +0200, Amit Aronovitch wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:56 AM, Amos Shapira <amos.shapira at gmail.com>wrote:
> > I didn't follow the detail but a few weeks ago this made a noise on
> > Slashdot and as far as I'm aware Microsoft issued a statement which
> > calmed down the activists and it became a none-issue. I didn't follow
> > it closely so I might be wrong.
> >
> Can you help locating the MS statement that you describe?

The MS response on this issue is at 
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/22/protecting-the-pre-os-environment-with-uefi.aspx.

Matthew then responded to this at http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/6503.html.

baruch

> Some relevant details, described in Mathew Garett's post (thanks Tzafrir for
> the link), and some of the replies there:
> 
> 1. Problems with the proposed UEFI boot standard boil down to the fact that
> it lacks any means to allow the *owner of the hardware* to edit the list of
> trusted keys (load new keys, delete old ones).
> 
> 2. It seems to me that some aspects of this are in fact a security issue,
> which should also be in the interest of Microsoft to solve (e.g. they would
> probably want some means to recover in case one of their keys get stolen).
> 
> 3. Some solution to the problem (a mechanism for loading keys from specially
> formatted removable media) will be (is being) suggested by Garrett to UEFI
> during this week's "plugfest" http://www.uefi.org/events/
> 
> 4. Readers of this group should be interested to know that this solution
> (whatever other advantages/disadvantages it might have) would allow you to
> end up being able to boot kernels (or bootloaders) that you compiled
> yourself and signed with your own private key.
> 
> Hence: if that MS statement contained some indication that Microsoft would
> support such a solution, indeed I see no serious reason to worry.
> Either way, we should follow closely for reports from the plugfest
> conclusions next week.

-- 
                                                     ~. .~   Tk Open Systems
=}------------------------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo------------{=
   - baruch at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -


From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 18:00:41 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:00:41 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <20111025155532.GA2434@sapphire.tkos.co.il>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111025155532.GA2434@sapphire.tkos.co.il>
Message-ID: <6F61C710-F19A-4579-98E6-E8B4903C3390@gmail.com>


On Oct 25, 2011, at 5:55 PM, Baruch Siach wrote:

> Hi Amit,
>
> The MS response on this issue is at
> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/22/protecting-the-pre-os-environment-with-uefi.aspx 
> .
>
> Matthew then responded to this at http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/6503.html 
> .

For those that don't want to read through a lot of technical stuff he  
said:

	"But for the foreseeable future, you'll be able to buy hardware that  
runs Linux."

Geoff.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From pub at goldshmidt.org  Tue Oct 25 18:34:08 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:34:08 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM+3FtQw0Au3kNE6KVYn7nuR8US5zh=S-qmVarZBu4PehPvvyw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/25 Amit Aronovitch <aronovitch at gmail.com>:

>> I didn't follow the detail but a few weeks ago this made a noise on
>> Slashdot and as far as I'm aware Microsoft issued a statement which
>> calmed down the activists and it became a none-issue. I didn't follow
>> it closely so I might be wrong.
>>
>
> Can you help locating the MS statement that you describe?


I was not the one who "described" it but I believe this is the
statement in question:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/22/protecting-the-pre-os-environment-with-uefi.aspx

Some quotes:

"Secure boot doesn?t ?lock out? operating system loaders, but is a
policy that allows firmware to validate authenticity of components"

"Microsoft does not mandate or control the settings on PC firmware
that control or enable secured boot from any operating system other
than Windows"

This does not really mean much to me. As far as I can decipher the
really problematic piece is the bootloader (e.g., grub for our
purposes). The statements above say, if the FW vendor allows disabling
the security feature it's up to you, it you want to use grub and Linux
we are fine with that. What they do not say is, e.g., if you disable
the FW security layer you will not be able to boot Windows 8 from
unsigned grub. They do not say how one would go about signing grub
(see the RedHat guy's post for details of the problem).

I miss lots of things in the debate that I've seen discussed nowhere.
E.g., if I disable FW security layer and use unsigned grub to boot
Linux, will I be able to run Windows 8 in a VM on top of that Linux?
Will hypervisor vendors (including hosted hypervisors) have to include
new "security" components that would verify all the layers below to
run a Windows 8 guest (nested virtualization will be so much more fun,
eh?)? WIll security be checked only at OS boot? Will it be impossible
to live-migrate a Windows 8 VM between physical servers with different
security settings (sounds like a lot of work for VMware VirtualCenter
and other products like that). Ditto for enterprise level provisioning
and/or scheduling systems that match images (of physical or virtual
systems) with HW resources. Ditto for "orchestration" products that
reshuffle resources to optimize whatever and heal other stuff and add
capacity on demand etc., etc., etc. All those will have to take
additional parameters into account (and do more work, e.g.,
reconfigure FW on the fly, adding to provisioning complexity and
time), otherwise things won't boot.

However, the discussion below the blog I linked to above seems to
indicate that MS may not be as evil as we give them credit to be:

Q. [W]ill Windows 8 be usable on systems which have secure boot
disabled for compatibility questions?
A. Of course Windows is usable without secure boot -- just like the post stated.

I did not find this statement in the blog, but I could have missed it.
As far as I understand the blog post was written by a different
person(Tony Mangefeste) than the blog owner (Steven Sinofsky), and the
answer I quoted above is from the blog owner. So I am not 100% sure
that the security option can be turned off in Windows 8.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From tzafrir at cohens.org.il  Tue Oct 25 18:42:23 2011
From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:42:23 +0000
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111025164223.GI31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 05:37:29PM +0200, Amit Aronovitch wrote:
> Setting aside the amusing political debates and going back to the original
> topic - what's the actual status of the UEFI boot issue?
> 
> (Following up on the link from Tzafrir's
> post:http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/6503.html,
> see my comments below )

> Can you help locating the MS statement that you describe?
> 
> Some relevant details, described in Mathew Garett's post (thanks Tzafrir for
> the link), and some of the replies there:
> 
> 1. Problems with the proposed UEFI boot standard boil down to the fact that
> it lacks any means to allow the *owner of the hardware* to edit the list of
> trusted keys (load new keys, delete old ones).

Rather: the owner can not edit the list of certificate authorities. The
owner can, optionally (according to the standard) add extra keys. But
this option is prohibited by Microsoft.

> 
> 2. It seems to me that some aspects of this are in fact a security issue,
> which should also be in the interest of Microsoft to solve (e.g. they would
> probably want some means to recover in case one of their keys get stolen).
> 
> 3. Some solution to the problem (a mechanism for loading keys from specially
> formatted removable media) will be (is being) suggested by Garrett to UEFI
> during this week's "plugfest" http://www.uefi.org/events/
> 
> 4. Readers of this group should be interested to know that this solution
> (whatever other advantages/disadvantages it might have) would allow you to
> end up being able to boot kernels (or bootloaders) that you compiled
> yourself and signed with your own private key.

Custom kernel? How about custom boot loader code?

Grub2 can:

* read pathes and files from the disk(s).
* run a program:
  http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/html_node/Shell_002dlike-scripting.html#Shell_002dlike-scripting

So, would grub be allowed to boot?

> 
> Hence: if that MS statement contained some indication that Microsoft would
> support such a solution, indeed I see no serious reason to worry.
> Either way, we should follow closely for reports from the plugfest
> conclusions next week.

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen         | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il |                    | a Mutt's
tzafrir at cohens.org.il |                    |  best
tzafrir at debian.org    |                    | friend


From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 18:52:53 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:52:53 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <CAM+3FtQw0Au3kNE6KVYn7nuR8US5zh=S-qmVarZBu4PehPvvyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAM+3FtQw0Au3kNE6KVYn7nuR8US5zh=S-qmVarZBu4PehPvvyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DF28BEF8-E178-407D-B914-A8EA0C584BB9@gmail.com>


On Oct 25, 2011, at 6:34 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote:
>
> This does not really mean much to me. As far as I can decipher the
> really problematic piece is the bootloader (e.g., grub for our
> purposes).

The points not covered here is that secure boot IN PART has been  
around for a long time. Later versions of Windows XP started the trend  
by looking for encrypted keys in the BIOS. This is how Windows knows  
you are using for example a Packard Bell version of Windows (and  
therefore not needing activation) on a Packard Bell computer.

Windows 7 expanded upon this. As a way of getting around this  
mechanism, hackers have developed a modified GRUB (yes, they started  
with the real thing) that loads the keys from disk and fakes the  
authentication server in the BIOS.

So you can go to xxx.com and download a version of GRUB which lets you  
choose the manufacturer of your computer that Windows 7 sees, so that  
it will boot without external authentication.

That's why Microsoft is asking for the ability to check if a  
bootloader was used that is not approved and to warn the customer.

MY GUESS is that if an unsigned version of GRUB (or any other  
bootloader) is used, Microsoft will use an alternate identification  
and authentication method (e.g. call 1-800-Linux-sux and ask for  
Bill). (that's a joke for the paranoid trolls out there).

To me this has a silver lining. If Windows 8 refuses to boot on a  
computer with the secure boot disabled or not included at all, then  
they can't sell you that computer with a copy of Windows 8, and charge  
you for it.

Geoff.
-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From tzafrir at cohens.org.il  Tue Oct 25 18:53:31 2011
From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:53:31 +0000
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <6F61C710-F19A-4579-98E6-E8B4903C3390@gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111025155532.GA2434@sapphire.tkos.co.il>
	<6F61C710-F19A-4579-98E6-E8B4903C3390@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111025165331.GJ31744@pear.tzafrir.org.il>

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 06:00:41PM +0200, geoffrey mendelson wrote:
>
> On Oct 25, 2011, at 5:55 PM, Baruch Siach wrote:
>
>> Hi Amit,
>>
>> The MS response on this issue is at
 
>> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/09/22/protecting-the-pre-os-environment-with-uefi.aspx 
>> .
>>
>> Matthew then responded to this at http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/6503.html 
>> .
>
> For those that don't want to read through a lot of technical stuff he  
> said:
>
> 	"But for the foreseeable future, you'll be able to buy hardware that  
> runs Linux."

Some more context, for those of you who don't want to bother reading the
whole article:

This quote is from a footnote. The oroginal text:


The obvious workaround is for them to just turn off secure boot.
Ignoring the arguments over whether or not OEMs will provide that
option[[[[[6]]]]], it benefits nobody for Linux installation to require
disabling a legitimate security feature. It's also not likely to be in a
standard location on all systems and may have different naming. It's a
support nightmare. Let's focus on trying to find a solution that
provides the security and doesn't have obvious scaling issues.

And the footnote itself:

[6] And to forestall panic, at this point we expect that most OEMs will
provide this option on most hardware, if only because customers will
still want to boot Windows 7. We do know that some hardware will ship
without it. It's not implausible that some OEMs will remove it in order
to reduce their support burden. But for the foreseeable future, you'll
be able to buy hardware that runs Linux.


So yeah. Matthew Garret says we have nothing to worry about in the
forseeable future. I guess I should learn to read british
understatements.

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen         | tzafrir at jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il |                    | a Mutt's
tzafrir at cohens.org.il |                    |  best
tzafrir at debian.org    |                    | friend


From aronovitch at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 19:53:38 2011
From: aronovitch at gmail.com (Amit Aronovitch)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 19:53:38 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <8CFEC9D4-C2F5-4BC8-B610-0FE826DECAF1@gmail.com>
References: <20111023122810.7aa73a82@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<E458C646-2030-40CF-88B5-593B1642270F@gmail.com>
	<CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANFEmtddn=ru0wQovbRuDnnBxMV2TV8ZMeDRbgor3WHE-uCPKQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CFEC9D4-C2F5-4BC8-B610-0FE826DECAF1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANFEmtfZpSix25iQOaJy0DnGxQezxE-teg3VJp+HUvb+biDWQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 5:51 PM, geoffrey mendelson <
geoffreymendelson at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Oct 25, 2011, at 5:37 PM, Amit Aronovitch wrote:
>
>  Setting aside the amusing political debates and going back to the original
>> topic - what's the actual status of the UEFI boot issue?
>>
>
>
> 1. Microsoft never said they would do what the FSF claims they would.
>
> 2. Microsoft has said, but not in these words, we were not going to do
> this.
>
> If you want a somewhat relevant and entertaining experience watch the movie
> "Minority Report".
>
>
My concern in that message was regarding standartization of BIOS boot
protocols, and whether or not future standards would allow you to boot your
own self-compiled/self-signed kernels.

Whatever or not the FSF announcement said. Microsoft is *not* the authority
responsible for that, merely one out of 11 companies (including Apple and
IBM) which are represented in the relevant forum.

The relevance of FSF in the matter is only due to the fact that they brought
this specific issue to the attention of this specific list.
Microsoft's opinion (and I mean their opinion on BIOS boot options, not on
Stallman or his visit to Israel^H^HPalestine) is relevant because I suppose
that they are strongly represented, and unlikely to be ignored (Redhat is
not listed on UEFI site, so I suppose Mathew Garrett's suggestions will get
less attention than ideas brought forward by Microsoft).
Hence my interest in the statement mentioned here.

Took a while, but while writing this reply I finally got your point about
"Minority Report" (been a while, and all I remembered from the film was Tom
Cruise waving his hands to operate that then-futuristic-looking GUI) :-)

   AA
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From am1chay.p.k at gmail.com  Tue Oct 25 22:00:08 2011
From: am1chay.p.k at gmail.com (Amichay P. K.)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 22:00:08 +0200
Subject: Hebrew Linux / Open Source IRC channels?
Message-ID: <CA+7rhb8-S3C=vnp=NysDSnWH2bwgogEN=06pTuvEUc7RqdTX8g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

At the last few weeks i have started using IRC, and I'm interested to know -
is there any active Hebrew IRC channels?
As far as i have seen, there is #mozilla.il, ##linux-il and #ubuntu-il which
are not very active (no discussions, talks, etc...).

Does anyone have any suggestions for interesting rooms to hangout at?

I am interested in Linux, Debian/Ubuntu, Free software, and also Free
content.

-- 
Regards, Amichay.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * *

Web developer, and an independent security researcher.

My Blog: http://am1chay.blogspot.com/. For permission to read, please
contact me.
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From nyh at math.technion.ac.il  Tue Oct 25 23:35:05 2011
From: nyh at math.technion.ac.il (Nadav Har'El)
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 23:35:05 +0200
Subject: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"
In-Reply-To: <EF1D6D4C-2492-4136-99CF-0651D8307711@gmail.com>
References: <CAF9n_WWYmPxSOZ+=CujYteqSbOOpj4KytDk0zTmBwP8hQkOW+g@mail.gmail.com>
	<915B9149-7FBB-4023-B950-D83BA431DF22@gmail.com>
	<20111024120226.GA31505@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<F9F1F604-9463-4EC4-99DA-79412A56A4FA@gmail.com>
	<E704A116-5AAF-4B94-88C5-65E1FB637B6B@gmail.com>
	<CAJAZ2DQ6DTSW8d2BoTcgk6F7HEJxCp_52aFXs6aZ0qO=9CZiMw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111024160359.GA11813@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<CANFEmtf7p5qQgKt0OZJ0iLp6NspeORDgT5s_u0ydoGJ+ADQDiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111025092345.GA22751@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>
	<EF1D6D4C-2492-4136-99CF-0651D8307711@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111025213505.GA23846@fermat.math.technion.ac.il>

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011, geoffrey mendelson wrote about "Re: FSF Campaign against Microsoft's Plan to Enforce "Secure Boot"":
> >small market (this is the way Apple went for many years, and many
> >of its
> >services still are unavailable in Israel),
> 
> That's simply untrue. Apple for whatever reason it chose, sold an
> exclusive franchise to a company called YEDA about 27 years ago.
> When it expired, they chose to sell another one to a new company
> iDigital, which happens to be part owned by the President's son.
> They do that in many countries because of tax and other considerations.
> What products are sold in Israel or not is up to iDigital. They have

As they say, the proof is in the pudding. The product that turned Apple's
luck around, the iPhone, wasn't sold here for years. If I understand
correctly, you still can't buy songs or movies on iTunes if you're in
Israel. Apple also makes it easy for application makers to discreminate
against people from certain countries, and as in Israeli I still can't get
some applications that Americans can. Until very recently (perhaps just a
year ago?), the iPhone didn't have a Hebrew keyboard out of the box.

You can blaim Yeda, Akum, Pelephone or the President of Israel, but at the
end, it all comes down to a top management decision - does the company do
*whatever it takes* to please Israelis and make a few extra millions (peanuts
compared to the billions they are already making)? Microsoft decided *yes*:
they didn't sell their products through crappy resellers, they added Hebrew
support many many years ago, they didn't make it easy for application writers
to discriminate Israelis, didn't limit their online services only to
people from certain countries, and their new products were available in
Israel at the same time they were available everywhere else. Apple, on
the other hand, decided *no* - they would use a reseller than everyone
complain about, they would take years until new products reached Israel,
they would sell products without Hebrew support, prevent their own online
services from working in Israel, and help other app writers avoid being
sold in Israel.

If Apple wanted to act differently in Israel, they could do it 27 years
ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, or today. But they simply don't care. I don't
think it's antisemitism - it's simply that they don't care about the extra
0.01% that their profits can grow by pleasing Israelis more. Beside, Israelis
are, despite their hatred of being "friers", world famous suckers: If the
iPhone is (unlike its situation in the rest of the world!) the top selling
smartphone in Israel, even without iTunes working here, then why should
Apple bother to fix anything?

> Some products are not sold here because they are phased in, for
> example the iPhone 4s, but that's common around the world.

I'm not talking about a few months of delay. I'm talking about the *years*
it took before the iPhone got here, the *years* it took for it to get even
a Hebrew keyboard, and more importantly - iTunes store is still not available
(as I'm told), 8 years (!) after it was open in the U.S.

And again, don't blaim Akum - I don't think Akum is more powerful or greedy
than the RIAAA or whatever in the U.S. If iTunes still isn't available here
it's because Apple didn't bother.

> For example, someone I know went to Office Depot the first day they
> were selling legally imported iPads and a person from iDigital was
> there answering questions and doing demos.  The iPad came out of the
> box with Hebrew support.

Indeed. But believe it or not, until about a year ago, iOS did *not* come
with Hebrew support (especially no Hebrew keyboard). People were selling
various apps on the appstore for adding a rudementary Hebrew keyboard.

> BTW, despite what many people say, Steve Jobs was very supportive of
> open source. The actual MacOS is open source (though with a

I think there is no doubt that apple changed, some for the better and
some for the worst, but changed - when they came out with ipod (2001)
itunes (2003) and iphone (2007). Perhaps it has a few pieces of openness
from before that era, but it shed most of its openness during those years.
Mac OS X was released in 2001 - just before those "end of openness" years.

-- 
Nadav Har'El                        |                   Tuesday, Oct 25 2011, 
nyh at math.technion.ac.il             |-----------------------------------------
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Debugging: the art of removing bugs.
http://nadav.harel.org.il           |Programming: the art of inserting them.


From sara.fink at gmail.com  Wed Oct 26 14:36:53 2011
From: sara.fink at gmail.com (sara fink)
Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:36:53 +0200
Subject: Israeli Mageia Linux Mirror
In-Reply-To: <20111025092324.169003d2@lap.shlomifish.org>
References: <20111025092324.169003d2@lap.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <CAKsgyTamfMvV50EBP5u1N=S0paAOy1UjtxqmQEBX3uUVkLc6GQ@mail.gmail.com>

I heard very good things from ISP ccc and so far don't practice traffic
shaping. I am not their worker.
Also, it's without commitment. Prices look very good.

http://www.ccc.co.il/Product.aspx?ServiceID=5&TypeID=40&ProductID=104

prices are here

https://store.ccccloud.com/index.php?NAME_PATH=internetservices

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Shlomi Fish <shlomif at shlomifish.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm using Mageia Linux, the community fork of Mandriva Linux, and since
> there
> isn't an Israeli mirror, I've been getting crappy bandwidth from its
> international mirrors[1], which has been disrupting my work as a Mageia
> Linux
> packager and user. I believe there are other users of Mageia Linux in
> Israel.
>
> Please set up a local mirror on mirror.isoc.org.il:
>
> http://www.mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirror.readme
>
> Regards,
>
>        Shlomi Fish
>
> [1] - When I talked about it with a support persons of my ISP, they said
> it's a
> known and deliberate issue and that I should pay extra for the "Gamer's
> Package"
> to get priority for international traffic.
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
> "The Human Hacking Field Guide" - http://shlom.in/hhfg
>
> A golfed Java program will be longer than non?golf Perl or Python code.
>
> Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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From pub at goldshmidt.org  Thu Oct 27 18:49:21 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:49:21 +0200
Subject: Checkpoint VPN client for Linux - is there any?
Message-ID: <m3vcra752m.fsf@goldshmidt.org>


Hi everyone,

I would like to find a VPN client solution for Linux that is
compatible with what I currently use on Windows (in a VM hosted on
Linux): Checkpoint's Endpoint Connect NGX R73.

It does not look like Checkpoint offer a Linux VPN client (of any
kind? the VPN Client Download page has a Linux tab but there is
nothing there). Is this correct? 

I do not know enough to decide for myself (after googling around)
whether

1. the whole thing is hopeless and there is nothing compatible;
2. there may be 3rd party/FOSS clients that are compatible with some
   Chekpoint solutions and not others and more information is needed
   to pick one or more to try;
3. one can just grab "this thingy here" and see if it works.

I don't own the server side but I can ask questions - the trick is to
know what to ask.

Any advice? Thanks!

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From dyasny at gmail.com  Thu Oct 27 19:00:40 2011
From: dyasny at gmail.com (dyasny)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:00:40 +0200
Subject: Checkpoint VPN client for Linux - is there any?
In-Reply-To: <m3vcra752m.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
References: <m3vcra752m.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
Message-ID: <CALLXwb7dKFQXBNaa4eGp_rZiQAfpo-spZH19k326hVS=iuOxeA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org> wrote:

>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I would like to find a VPN client solution for Linux that is
> compatible with what I currently use on Windows (in a VM hosted on
> Linux): Checkpoint's Endpoint Connect NGX R73.
>
> It does not look like Checkpoint offer a Linux VPN client (of any
> kind? the VPN Client Download page has a Linux tab but there is
> nothing there). Is this correct?
>
> I do not know enough to decide for myself (after googling around)
> whether
>
> 1. the whole thing is hopeless and there is nothing compatible;
> 2. there may be 3rd party/FOSS clients that are compatible with some
>   Chekpoint solutions and not others and more information is needed
>   to pick one or more to try;
> 3. one can just grab "this thingy here" and see if it works.
>
>
Just try to use raccoon or vpnc, I remember having either work better than
the original CP client (which was only available for RH7, so no wonder it's
ancient and horrible)


> I don't own the server side but I can ask questions - the trick is to
> know what to ask.
>
> Any advice? Thanks!
>
> --
> Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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From tsnoam at gmail.com  Thu Oct 27 19:13:12 2011
From: tsnoam at gmail.com (Noam Meltzer)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:13:12 +0200
Subject: Checkpoint VPN client for Linux - is there any?
In-Reply-To: <CALLXwb7dKFQXBNaa4eGp_rZiQAfpo-spZH19k326hVS=iuOxeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m3vcra752m.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
	<CALLXwb7dKFQXBNaa4eGp_rZiQAfpo-spZH19k326hVS=iuOxeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADtAWjC_Jf8bYc1vxrpkrjMwFxynLtJFaXbicL=6d0Dh0expwA@mail.gmail.com>

If I remember correctly CP has some kind of plugin/extension/some other kind
of lie called "snx".
Or at least "snx" was the utility for linux which was the VPN client.
You need some kind of license per user for that in the firewall.

It worked for me several years ago with Ubuntu 08-04 (after a little
hacking, of adding some missing '.so')

2011/10/27 dyasny <dyasny at gmail.com>

>
>
> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org>wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I would like to find a VPN client solution for Linux that is
>> compatible with what I currently use on Windows (in a VM hosted on
>> Linux): Checkpoint's Endpoint Connect NGX R73.
>>
>> It does not look like Checkpoint offer a Linux VPN client (of any
>> kind? the VPN Client Download page has a Linux tab but there is
>> nothing there). Is this correct?
>>
>> I do not know enough to decide for myself (after googling around)
>> whether
>>
>> 1. the whole thing is hopeless and there is nothing compatible;
>> 2. there may be 3rd party/FOSS clients that are compatible with some
>>   Chekpoint solutions and not others and more information is needed
>>   to pick one or more to try;
>> 3. one can just grab "this thingy here" and see if it works.
>>
>>
> Just try to use raccoon or vpnc, I remember having either work better than
> the original CP client (which was only available for RH7, so no wonder it's
> ancient and horrible)
>
>
>> I don't own the server side but I can ask questions - the trick is to
>> know what to ask.
>>
>> Any advice? Thanks!
>>
>> --
>> Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linux-il mailing list
>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
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From ezaton at tournament.org.il  Thu Oct 27 22:35:48 2011
From: ezaton at tournament.org.il (Etzion Bar-Noy)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:35:48 +0200
Subject: Checkpoint VPN client for Linux - is there any?
In-Reply-To: <CADtAWjC_Jf8bYc1vxrpkrjMwFxynLtJFaXbicL=6d0Dh0expwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m3vcra752m.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
	<CALLXwb7dKFQXBNaa4eGp_rZiQAfpo-spZH19k326hVS=iuOxeA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADtAWjC_Jf8bYc1vxrpkrjMwFxynLtJFaXbicL=6d0Dh0expwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+vBjEcWhS952cwV5+pcv303CFR5D_WhLnS91vA6brEqLMBdbA@mail.gmail.com>

Snx is for their ssl snx product. It will not work where officeconnect
should be deployed.

Ez
On Oct 27, 2011 7:13 PM, "Noam Meltzer" <tsnoam at gmail.com> wrote:

> If I remember correctly CP has some kind of plugin/extension/some other
> kind of lie called "snx".
> Or at least "snx" was the utility for linux which was the VPN client.
> You need some kind of license per user for that in the firewall.
>
> It worked for me several years ago with Ubuntu 08-04 (after a little
> hacking, of adding some missing '.so')
>
> 2011/10/27 dyasny <dyasny at gmail.com>
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Oleg Goldshmidt <pub at goldshmidt.org>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> I would like to find a VPN client solution for Linux that is
>>> compatible with what I currently use on Windows (in a VM hosted on
>>> Linux): Checkpoint's Endpoint Connect NGX R73.
>>>
>>> It does not look like Checkpoint offer a Linux VPN client (of any
>>> kind? the VPN Client Download page has a Linux tab but there is
>>> nothing there). Is this correct?
>>>
>>> I do not know enough to decide for myself (after googling around)
>>> whether
>>>
>>> 1. the whole thing is hopeless and there is nothing compatible;
>>> 2. there may be 3rd party/FOSS clients that are compatible with some
>>>   Chekpoint solutions and not others and more information is needed
>>>   to pick one or more to try;
>>> 3. one can just grab "this thingy here" and see if it works.
>>>
>>>
>> Just try to use raccoon or vpnc, I remember having either work better than
>> the original CP client (which was only available for RH7, so no wonder it's
>> ancient and horrible)
>>
>>
>>> I don't own the server side but I can ask questions - the trick is to
>>> know what to ask.
>>>
>>> Any advice? Thanks!
>>>
>>> --
>>> Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Linux-il mailing list
>>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linux-il mailing list
>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
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From elazarl at gmail.com  Fri Oct 28 00:02:18 2011
From: elazarl at gmail.com (Elazar Leibovich)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 00:02:18 +0200
Subject: Checkpoint VPN client for Linux - is there any?
In-Reply-To: <CADtAWjC_Jf8bYc1vxrpkrjMwFxynLtJFaXbicL=6d0Dh0expwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m3vcra752m.fsf@goldshmidt.org>
	<CALLXwb7dKFQXBNaa4eGp_rZiQAfpo-spZH19k326hVS=iuOxeA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADtAWjC_Jf8bYc1vxrpkrjMwFxynLtJFaXbicL=6d0Dh0expwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHNTFmKHkNmMRxv3J8LnSfw-r0GdnQyLVN4zYEAOHe4ah3mPZA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/27 Noam Meltzer <tsnoam at gmail.com>

> If I remember correctly CP has some kind of plugin/extension/some other
> kind of lie called "snx".
> Or at least "snx" was the utility for linux which was the VPN client.
> You need some kind of license per user for that in the firewall.
>

Didn't work for me with modern firewall.
In fact I asked the same question a while ago and didn't find answer.

The best thing I could do, is route things through virtualbox with
Windows...

Very frustrating.
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From shlomif at shlomifish.org  Fri Oct 28 19:13:10 2011
From: shlomif at shlomifish.org (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 19:13:10 +0200
Subject: Israeli Mageia Linux Mirror
In-Reply-To: <F85EB0F1-FE4E-4C5C-952A-79A4981F9DE1@gmail.com>
References: <20111025092324.169003d2@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<F85EB0F1-FE4E-4C5C-952A-79A4981F9DE1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111028191310.3c23555d@lap.shlomifish.org>

Hello Geoffrey,

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:51:08 +0200
geoffrey mendelson <geoffreymendelson at gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> On Oct 25, 2011, at 9:23 AM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> 
> > [1] - When I talked about it with a support persons of my ISP, they  
> > said it's a
> > known and deliberate issue and that I should pay extra for the  
> > "Gamer's Package"
> > to get priority for international traffic.
> 
> 
> It's not a deliberate attempt to screw you, or prevent you doing your  
> good work, or closet support of Microsoft. It's their best guess  
> attempt at equally sharing a scarce resource (international bandwidth)  
> among all of their users.
> 

Well, I know that I can download from http://mirror.isoc.org.il/ in the full
download speed, and that I can also download more quickly by opening several
connections (using https://sourceforge.net/projects/prozilla/ ). So it seems a
bit suspicious.

I also recall that download speed from abroad was better about two years ago.

> Paying for a gamer's package won't help much, depending upon the ISP,  
> most of them give you better INTERACTIVE performance at the cost of  
> poorer downloads, etc.

I see.

> 
> My advice to you is to schedule you work so that uploads and downloads  
> are done at off hours. 012's off hours are around 3am to 3pm, for  
> example. One day, as a test, I tried to see how much I could download  
> in a day using a 15mbit NGN line and a regular 012 account. I was able  
> to get over 50g (50 gigabytes) of download, 99+% during the off peak  
> period.

Well, I need to do things when I need to do them, and need to download stuff
throughout my computer working day. And when I do, it tend to sucks.

Regards,

	Shlomi Fish

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Shlomi Fish       http://www.shlomifish.org/
What does "Zionism" mean? - http://shlom.in/def-zionism

Wikipedia has a page about everything including the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen_sink .

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .


From meirgotroot at gmail.com  Fri Oct 28 23:11:46 2011
From: meirgotroot at gmail.com (Meir Michanie)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 23:11:46 +0200
Subject: OT:pci modem
Message-ID: <CAG4bpDJfK4VsSfL_5VEvDXqeBKcv=ebrGCtwortgFNUheJsOew@mail.gmail.com>

Hi list ,
I have three pci modem , that I do not know if they work in linux.
One is ESS modem
One is Apache V90
and another is Motorola  m6k90-000

Anyone knows if they are of any use? I could use them with asterisk or
any other way to send/recieve fax?


From meirm at riunx.com  Fri Oct 28 23:48:38 2011
From: meirm at riunx.com (Meir Michanie)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 23:48:38 +0200
Subject: OT:pci modem
In-Reply-To: <CAG4bpDJfK4VsSfL_5VEvDXqeBKcv=ebrGCtwortgFNUheJsOew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG4bpDJfK4VsSfL_5VEvDXqeBKcv=ebrGCtwortgFNUheJsOew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG4bpDLHT0T+Bn6MDvzHy=S+T=5A73k1hLi_iTQ65hce5ns_kw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi list ,
I have three pci modem , that I do not know if they work in linux.
One is ESS modem
One is Apache V90
and another is Motorola ?m6k90-000

Anyone knows if they are of any use? I could use them with asterisk or
any other way to send/recieve fax?


From hetzbh at gmail.com  Fri Oct 28 23:53:24 2011
From: hetzbh at gmail.com (Hetz Ben Hamo)
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 23:53:24 +0200
Subject: OT:pci modem
In-Reply-To: <CAG4bpDJfK4VsSfL_5VEvDXqeBKcv=ebrGCtwortgFNUheJsOew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG4bpDJfK4VsSfL_5VEvDXqeBKcv=ebrGCtwortgFNUheJsOew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHVqw=hbWu7rNm654sdAVLM2KXpiTiD6niKnaH5Ubs-xZ1mBLw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

You can start by looking here: http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/hsf/

If not, the chip name (or PCI ID) is required in order to dig and find a
modem driver.

Thanks,
Hetz

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Meir Michanie <meirgotroot at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi list ,
> I have three pci modem , that I do not know if they work in linux.
> One is ESS modem
> One is Apache V90
> and another is Motorola  m6k90-000
>
> Anyone knows if they are of any use? I could use them with asterisk or
> any other way to send/recieve fax?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>



-- 

*?? ?? ???
??-???
*????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????
??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???????? Hulu? NetFlix? Pandora? Google
Voice? ?? ??, ????? ???? <http://vps.net.bz/?p=406>.
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From meirgotroot at gmail.com  Sat Oct 29 18:08:30 2011
From: meirgotroot at gmail.com (Meir Michanie)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 18:08:30 +0200
Subject: OT:pci modem
In-Reply-To: <CAHVqw=hbWu7rNm654sdAVLM2KXpiTiD6niKnaH5Ubs-xZ1mBLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAG4bpDJfK4VsSfL_5VEvDXqeBKcv=ebrGCtwortgFNUheJsOew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHVqw=hbWu7rNm654sdAVLM2KXpiTiD6niKnaH5Ubs-xZ1mBLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG4bpD+a49vL1PyNb46eWmOXO81KNHrVRczbqqsoW25hv=x8YQ@mail.gmail.com>

I would gladly give them away. please contact me in private

On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Hetz Ben Hamo <hetzbh at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> You can start by looking here:?http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/hsf/
> If not, the chip name (or PCI ID) is required in order to dig and find a
> modem driver.
> Thanks,
> Hetz
>
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Meir Michanie <meirgotroot at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi list ,
>> I have three pci modem , that I do not know if they work in linux.
>> One is ESS modem
>> One is Apache V90
>> and another is Motorola ?m6k90-000
>>
>> Anyone knows if they are of any use? I could use them with asterisk or
>> any other way to send/recieve fax?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linux-il mailing list
>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
>
> --
>
> ?? ?? ???
> ??-???
> ????? ?????? ?? ????? ??????
> ??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ???????? Hulu? NetFlix? Pandora? Google
> Voice? ?? ??, ????? ????.
>


From eli at billauer.co.il  Sat Oct 29 18:47:31 2011
From: eli at billauer.co.il (Eli Billauer)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 19:47:31 +0300
Subject: [HAIFUX LECTURE] Bare-Metal Performance for I/O Virtualization by Abel
	Gordon
Message-ID: <4EAC2E23.1060209@billauer.co.il>

On Monday, October 31st at 18:30, Haifux will gather to hear Abel Gordon 
(IBM HRL) talk about


    Bare-Metal Performance for I/O Virtualization


Abstract


Direct device assignment enhances the performance of guest virtual 
machines by allowing them to communicate with I/O devices without host 
involvement. But even with device assignment, guests are still unable to 
approach bare-metal performance, because the host intercepts all 
interrupts, including those interrupts generated by assigned devices to 
signal to guests the completion of their I/O requests. The host 
involvement induces multiple unwarranted guest/host context switches, 
which significantly hamper the performance of I/O intensive workloads. 
To solve this problem, we present ELI (ExitLess Interrupts), a 
software-only approach for handling interrupts within guest virtual 
machines directly and securely. By removing the host from the interrupt 
handling path, ELI manages to improve the throughput and latency of 
unmodified, untrusted guests by 1.3x--1.6x, allowing them to reach 
97%-100% of bare-metal performance even for the most demanding 
I/O-intensive workloads.

Joint work with Nadav Amit, Nadav Har'El, Muli Ben-Yehuda, Alex Landau, 
Assaf Schuster, and Dan Tsafrir


Slides to be published soon (probably Sunday evening or so).


================================

We meet in Taub (CS Faculty) building, room 6. For instructions see: 
http://www.haifux.org/where.html

Attendance is free, and you are all invited!

================================
Future Haifux talks include:


14/11/2011 GPGPU - Motivation and Architecture by Ofer Rosenberg

28/11/2011 GPGPU - OpenCL by Ofer Rosenberg

12/12/2011 GPGPU - Case studies, Do's and Dont's by Ofer Rosenberg

26/12/2011 GPGPU - Tools and profiling for performance by Ofer Rosenberg

09/01/2012 Maqaf Hataf Patakh - The new standard Hebrew keyboard layout 
by Amir E. Aharoni


============================================================

We are always interested in hearing your talks and ideas. If you wish to 
give a talk, hold a discussion, or just plan some event Haifux might be 
interested in, please contact us at webmaster at haifux.org


-- 
Web: http://www.billauer.co.il


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From wordz2u at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 01:58:54 2011
From: wordz2u at gmail.com (Steve G.)
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 17:58:54 -0600
Subject: Converting multiple html files to pdf files
Message-ID: <CAJAZ2DS_SqqX1ZZpt9LjgjN0gOqVxOwmLrXJgA=RigRueV7HbA@mail.gmail.com>

Happy Halloween!

I have a large number of .htm files (text in English, Spanish or Hebrew
with punctuation marks) which I want to convert to .pdf or PDF files, so I
can read them on the Kindle.

I know how to do it manually - I open them in a browser, select Print-Print
to file - PDF, give a name and print. But as I have several hundred files,
it is not practical.

1. Is there a more automated, preferably command line, to take each file,
and convert it to from filename.htm to filename.pdf, while keeping the file
name?

2. Is there a way to control the output of the pdf file, so that the font
size is adequate for the kindle (I do not have specs, so I will use trial
and error), which has a small screen with a 600x800 resolution?

For the record, I tried a program called wkhtmltopdf (static version), and
it works, but sticks rectangles  between letters rather often. Printing
from Firefox to PDF works, but is a manual process. Considering I have
hundreds of files, it is impractical.

Thanks,

Z.

http://www.words2u.net - GPS points and tracks (mainly in Costa Rica)

http://www.words2u.net/recipes - Recipe collection
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From write.to.jason at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 08:40:46 2011
From: write.to.jason at gmail.com (Jason Friedman)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:40:46 +1100
Subject: Converting multiple html files to pdf files
In-Reply-To: <CAJAZ2DS_SqqX1ZZpt9LjgjN0gOqVxOwmLrXJgA=RigRueV7HbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJAZ2DS_SqqX1ZZpt9LjgjN0gOqVxOwmLrXJgA=RigRueV7HbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJVJ8zZa3g_ObrBOiJp+5nF3nWwE7mUeGbhG4Gdx5fui2Gf7VA@mail.gmail.com>

> Printing from
> Firefox to PDF works, but is a manual process. Considering I have hundreds
> of files, it is impractical.

You could try scripting Firefox using MozRepl
(https://github.com/bard/mozrepl/wiki).

There is a CPAN (perl) module which may help.

Jason
-- 
Jason Friedman
Postdoctoral scholar
Macquarie Centre for Cognitive Science
Macquarie University, NSW 2109 Australia
email: write.to.jason at gmail.com
web: http://curiousjason.com


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Sun Oct 30 09:03:29 2011
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 09:03:29 +0200
Subject: Converting multiple html files to pdf files
In-Reply-To: <CAJAZ2DS_SqqX1ZZpt9LjgjN0gOqVxOwmLrXJgA=RigRueV7HbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJAZ2DS_SqqX1ZZpt9LjgjN0gOqVxOwmLrXJgA=RigRueV7HbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m3bosz6jwe.fsf@goldshmidt.org>

"Steve G." <wordz2u at gmail.com> writes:

> 1. Is there a more automated, preferably command line, to take each file, and
> convert it to from filename.htm to filename.pdf, while keeping the
> file name?

html2ps + ps2pdf

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From mordecha.behar at mail.huji.ac.il  Sun Oct 30 09:45:33 2011
From: mordecha.behar at mail.huji.ac.il (Mordecha Behar)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 09:45:33 +0200
Subject: Converting multiple html files to pdf files
In-Reply-To: <CAJAZ2DS_SqqX1ZZpt9LjgjN0gOqVxOwmLrXJgA=RigRueV7HbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJAZ2DS_SqqX1ZZpt9LjgjN0gOqVxOwmLrXJgA=RigRueV7HbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHp+bBgAW5S_p4gO9eGkLdnV7Lz6NsTaxRvbJ4O9EgtNPH3VNg@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/30 Steve G. <wordz2u at gmail.com>

> Happy Halloween!
>
> I have a large number of .htm files (text in English, Spanish or Hebrew
> with punctuation marks) which I want to convert to .pdf or PDF files, so I
> can read them on the Kindle.
>
> I know how to do it manually - I open them in a browser, select
> Print-Print to file - PDF, give a name and print. But as I have several
> hundred files, it is not practical.
>
> 1. Is there a more automated, preferably command line, to take each file,
> and convert it to from filename.htm to filename.pdf, while keeping the file
> name?
>
> 2. Is there a way to control the output of the pdf file, so that the font
> size is adequate for the kindle (I do not have specs, so I will use trial
> and error), which has a small screen with a 600x800 resolution?
>
> For the record, I tried a program called wkhtmltopdf (static version), and
> it works, but sticks rectangles  between letters rather often. Printing
> from Firefox to PDF works, but is a manual process. Considering I have
> hundreds of files, it is impractical.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
Calibre (http://calibre-ebook.com/) will convert just about anything to
just about anything, as long as there is no DRM involved. It also has a
function for batch-conversions, although I've never used it (the batch
conversion. I do use it to manage my eBook library and convert files
singly). But the reviewers rave....


> Z.
>
> http://www.words2u.net - GPS points and tracks (mainly in Costa Rica)
>
> http://www.words2u.net/recipes - Recipe collection
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
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From geoffreymendelson at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 14:41:36 2011
From: geoffreymendelson at gmail.com (geoffrey mendelson)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:41:36 +0200
Subject: Israeli Mageia Linux Mirror
In-Reply-To: <20111028191310.3c23555d@lap.shlomifish.org>
References: <20111025092324.169003d2@lap.shlomifish.org>
	<F85EB0F1-FE4E-4C5C-952A-79A4981F9DE1@gmail.com>
	<20111028191310.3c23555d@lap.shlomifish.org>
Message-ID: <16E8CAD1-2A9B-4E3E-BB7E-28F7ACB036BF@gmail.com>


On Oct 28, 2011, at 7:13 PM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

Shlomi,
>
> Well, I know that I can download from http://mirror.isoc.org.il/ in  
> the full
> download speed, and that I can also download more quickly by opening  
> several
> connections (using https://sourceforge.net/projects/prozilla/ ). So  
> it seems a
> bit suspicious.

No, it's how various ISP's do traffic shaping. For example, 012 has a  
magic limit, over which they can not control things, so if you open  
enough connections it will equal full line speed. If you only open 2  
or 3 it will total the limited speed they want you to have.

It's part of net neutrality, that everyone gets their "fair share" of  
what they are paying for. Luckily, IMHO Israeli ISPs are not 100%  
neutral, they allow you to pay a small monthly fee and get better  
performance than people who don't.

A friend of mine is in the private network business and he sells  
10mbit up/down dedicated bandwith to the US connections. They go for  
about $10,000 a month (yes, that is dollars).



> I also recall that download speed from abroad was better about two  
> years ago.

That's because ALL internet connections from North Africa to the Gulf  
of Arabia, use fiber optic cables across the bottom of the  
Mediterranean Sea, and about two years ago several were cut. I think  
they have been since repaired, but the richer customers of the cable  
companies get better service than we do. :-(

Also things have changed here, two years ago a 5mbit connection was  
high priced rarity, and now 15mbit NGN (fiber to near your home) and  
12mbit cable connections are common.

> Well, I need to do things when I need to do them, and need to  
> download stuff
> throughout my computer working day. And when I do, it tend to sucks.


Yes, I expect it does. If you can't get an official mirror, maybe you  
could create your own. Off hour bandwith is cheap, and so is disk  
space. After all there is no guarantee that an Israel mirror would  
update during peak time, and it's very likely it won't.

Geoff.
-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(















From ladypine at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 17:13:24 2011
From: ladypine at gmail.com (Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:13:24 +0200
Subject: Towards the GPGPU lecture series
In-Reply-To: <7B0AB6AF09E0424BABF5F473136D523408A306F450@STOREXMBP01.amd.com>
References: <CAA8-RXjyrCdPa40WHVpSNRDwW14kE+Ct+KpFE49bmJ0LxQZA0g@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B0AB6AF09E0424BABF5F473136D523408A306F42C@STOREXMBP01.amd.com>
	<CAA8-RXh_qJt4rH0DPR-jbc-TokNdBf0xKGHO3a0AwaNzBSt9aw@mail.gmail.com>
	<7B0AB6AF09E0424BABF5F473136D523408A306F450@STOREXMBP01.amd.com>
Message-ID: <CAA8-RXi5G2CTYYThYXopSs1edYSYh4OB41wjAoJqNrZJ5k2rbw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello everyone,

General Purpose GPU programming became a hot topic in the last few years,
ranging from academic studies to being used by commercial software
products. As an example, three out of the world?s top10 supercomputers
(June2011 list) contain GPUs in them. This series of lectures focuses on
OpenCL, the open standard for parallel programming of heterogeneous systems.

On November 14th Haifux will begin a 4-meeting series (8 hours in total) of
practical, hands-on GPGPU, given by Ofer Rosenberg from AMD Israel (
http://www.linkedin.com/in/oferrosenberg ).  The meetings will take place
at Taub 6, on alternate Mondays (14/11, 28/11, 12/12, 26/12), 18:30-20:30,
but watch our site (http://haifux.org) or join the announcement mailing
list on the same page for announcements on changes (in particular, room
changes).
The outline of the talks will be as follows (see detailed syllabus below):

1. GPGPU introduction
2.OpenCL introduction
3.OpenCL Dos and Don'ts
4.OpenCL optimization and profiling

The third and fourth meetings will include hands-on experience, under
Ofer's guidance. For these meetings, each participant will have to bring a
laptop with:
1. Linux (this is Haifux, the Haifa Linux Club)
2. An x86 processor, either AMD or Intel. An IPAD is not good for this
purpose.
3. AMD's OpenCL implementation installed. It works both on AMD and Intel,
installation details for those who need them will follow.
4. Eclipse installed.
5. If possible, an AMD GPU, with a version number of 54 or higher.  Use
?lspci | grep VGA? to find the GPU vendor & model.

To arrange for machine access for those who do not have a suitable laptop,
as well as prepare for the series,* please reply in private to
webmaster at haifux.org*
*if you intend to attend the series.
*If you have (or do not have) the required gear. In particular, if you have
an AMD GPU.

 Please forward to whomever you see fit.

*Syllabus: Introduction to GPGPU Programming*

General Purpose GPU programming became a hot topic in the last few years,
ranging from academic studies to being used by commercial software
products. As an example, three out of the world?s top10 supercomputers
(June2011 list) contain GPUs in them. This series of lectures focuses on
OpenCL, the open standard for parallel programming of heterogeneous systems.

1. GPGPU introduction
The first lecture is an introduction to GPU architecture and GPGPU
programing. It covers the differences between GPU and CPU architectures,
and how these differences impose restrictions on programming GPUs. We will
also touch the issue of memory aspects of GPU architecture and the overall
system (CPU & GPU)

2. OpenCL overview
>From the Khronos website: ?OpenCL? is the first open, royalty-free standard
for cross-platform, parallel programming of modern processors found in
personal computers, servers and handheld/embedded devices?. This lecture
will provide an overview of OpenCL, covering the API programming aspects
(such as OpenCL objects, contexts, queues, events, etc.) as well as the
language enhancements (such as vectors, images, samplers, built-in
functions etc.)

3. OpenCL Do?s and Don?ts
This lecture provides a practical guide for programming in OpenCL by doing
a hands-on guided experience of writing OpenCL applications and kernels.
Starting from basic examples through more complex scenarios, we will
provide some tips for writing code that provides the required correct
results. We will also provide some performance tips.

4. OpenCL Optimization & Profiling
This lecture focuses on performance aspects of OpenCL. We will provide a
hands-on experience of improving performance of OpenCL kernels by
optimizing a specific example. In addition we will show ways to profile the
kernel, including working with profiling tools such as AMD kernel profiler
and gDebugger. Note that some of issues presented in this lecture will be
possible only on AMD GPUs.

--
Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda.
http://ladypine.org
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From kaplanlior at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 23:37:47 2011
From: kaplanlior at gmail.com (Lior Kaplan)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 23:37:47 +0200
Subject: talk.google.com certificate problem
Message-ID: <CAEsznC6kgx5EMtiVfK30xGQN7iZm6B-SyaUmAGV3GLRdmO4gJA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

When trying to use talk.google.com in pidgin I get a certificate that
expired on the 25th. See also
http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Google+Apps/thread?tid=296e90270b07985b&hl=en

Does anyone else encounters the same problem ? Because I would expect
something like that to get a bigger echo (and get solved quickly).

Kaplan
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From idokan at gmail.com  Sun Oct 30 23:40:20 2011
From: idokan at gmail.com (ik)
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 23:40:20 +0200
Subject: talk.google.com certificate problem
In-Reply-To: <CAEsznC6kgx5EMtiVfK30xGQN7iZm6B-SyaUmAGV3GLRdmO4gJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEsznC6kgx5EMtiVfK30xGQN7iZm6B-SyaUmAGV3GLRdmO4gJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOccsKCvMpyDQz7TSeiNCdqdjY--5Q=0QKxdJ15kTu73K-hkEA@mail.gmail.com>

2011/10/30 Lior Kaplan <kaplanlior at gmail.com>

> Hi,
>
> When trying to use talk.google.com in pidgin I get a certificate that
> expired on the 25th. See also
> http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Google+Apps/thread?tid=296e90270b07985b&hl=en
>
> Does anyone else encounters the same problem ? Because I would expect
> something like that to get a bigger echo (and get solved quickly).
>

I do, for few weeks now...


>
> Kaplan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
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From yba at tkos.co.il  Mon Oct 31 14:07:46 2011
From: yba at tkos.co.il (Jonathan Ben Avraham)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 14:07:46 +0200 (IST)
Subject: [YBA] Looking for TI 365 video help
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110311404350.2735@gamla.tkos.co.il>

Dear ILUG colleagues,
I am looking for someone with recent experience using the TI 265 (DaVinci) 
video coprocessor functions for video format transformations.
Please contact me off list.

  - yba


-- 
  EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5  83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA    ~. .~   Tk Open Systems
=}------------------------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo------------{=
      - yba at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -


From const at makelinux.co.il  Mon Oct 31 21:58:15 2011
From: const at makelinux.co.il (Constantine Shulyupin)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:58:15 +0200
Subject: [YBA] Looking for TI 365 video help
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110311404350.2735@gamla.tkos.co.il>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110311404350.2735@gamla.tkos.co.il>
Message-ID: <CAGZ04WVWv6r-vzA6T5TDYpH-UVLSSX9Sz+U7rJK_B-g8eJ12Sw@mail.gmail.com>

Do you mean DM365?
I do.

On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jonathan Ben Avraham <yba at tkos.co.il> wrote:
> Dear ILUG colleagues,
> I am looking for someone with recent experience using the TI 265 (DaVinci)
> video coprocessor functions for video format transformations.
> Please contact me off list.
>
> ?- yba
>
>
> --
> ?EE 77 7F 30 4A 64 2E C5 ?83 5F E7 49 A6 82 29 BA ? ?~. .~ ? Tk Open Systems
> =}------------------------------------------------ooO--U--Ooo------------{=
> ? ? - yba at tkos.co.il - tel: +972.2.679.5364, http://www.tkos.co.il -
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>



-- 
Constantine Shulyupin
http://www.MakeLinux.co.il/
Embedded Linux Systems,
Device Drivers, TI DaVinci