From shlomif at gmail.com Sat Jun 1 19:49:32 2019 From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 19:49:32 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? Message-ID: Hi all! I'd like to automatically check for spelling errors in the Hebrew text of my site which is close to be fully validated XHTML5. So I created this branch - https://github.com/shlomif/shlomi-fish-homepage/tree/spell-check-hebrew (note the branch name). Which adds autochecking using https://metacpan.org/pod/Text::Hunspell . However many legitimate Hebrew words are marked as errors: ``` ==== GLOBAL: ??-????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????-?'??? ??????? ????? ????? ?????-???? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????-????? ???????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????????? ???????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ???????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ???????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ????? ????? ????-???? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ???????? ?- ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ?????-???????? ???? ????? ????? ??-??? ??? ??????? ???-???? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ``` the main problem seems the handling of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affix es such as "be" "le" "she". So I wish to avoid whitelisting all these variations which is a lot of menial work. How can I use hspell to spellcheck UTF8 hebrew text inside valid XHTML in the context of an automated test suite - https://github.com/shlomif/what-you-should-know-about-automated-testing ? In theory what I need is a way to: 1. Get a boolean indicating if any errors were found. 2. Give me a list of disliked words so I can correct or whitelist them. Should I use https://linux.die.net/man/3/hspell ? -- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shlomif at gmail.com Sat Jun 1 20:14:54 2019 From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 20:14:54 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all! I found https://github.com/eranroz/HspellPy which seems exactly what I need. Any other insights would still be appreciated though. On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 7:49 PM Shlomi Fish wrote: > Hi all! > > I'd like to automatically check for spelling errors in the Hebrew text of > my site which is close to be fully validated XHTML5. > > So I created this branch - > https://github.com/shlomif/shlomi-fish-homepage/tree/spell-check-hebrew > (note the branch name). Which adds autochecking using > https://metacpan.org/pod/Text::Hunspell . However many legitimate Hebrew > words are marked as errors: > > ``` > ==== GLOBAL: > > ??-????? > ????? > ????? > ???? > ?????? > ???? > ?????? > ????? > ????? > ?????-?'??? > ??????? > ????? > ????? > ?????-???? > ?????? > ??? > ????? > ?????? > ??????? > ????? > ???? > ?????? > ???? > ?????? > ???? > ????? > ????? > ????? > ?????? > ???? > ?????????? > ?????? > ???? > ???? > ???? > ?????? > ???? > ?????? > ????-????? > ???????? > ???? > ?????? > ????? > ?????? > ????? > ?????? > ????? > ????????? > ???????? > ???? > ???? > ??????? > ???? > ????? > ???????? > ???????? > ??????? > ?????? > ?????? > ??????? > ?????? > ??????? > ????? > ????? > ?????? > ???????? > ??? > ?????? > ??????? > ???????? > ???? > ??????? > ????? > ?????? > ?????? > ?????? > ???? > ????? > ?????? > ?????? > ????? > ??? > ?????? > ???????? > ?????? > ?????? > ???????? > ????? > ????? > ????-???? > ?????? > ??????? > ????? > ???? > ???? > ?????? > ???? > ??? > ???? > ???????? > ???????? > ?- > ????? > ????? > ????? > ????? > ????? > ?????? > ????? > ????? > ????? > ????? > ????? > ?????? > ?????? > ???? > ????? > ???? > ????? > ????? > ??????? > ?????? > ????? > ?????? > ????? > ???????? > ???? > ??????? > ???? > ??? > ???????? > ???? > ?????-???????? > ???? > ????? > ????? > ??-??? > ??? > ??????? > ???-???? > ??????? > ?????? > ???? > ???? > ??? > ???????? > ??????? > ?????? > ??????? > ??????? > ??? > ?????? > ?????? > ?????? > ????? > ?????? > ?????? > ?????? > ?????? > ?????? > ``` > > the main problem seems the handling of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affix > es such as "be" "le" "she". So I wish to avoid whitelisting all these > variations which is a lot of menial work. > > How can I use hspell to spellcheck UTF8 hebrew text inside valid XHTML in > the context of an automated test suite - > https://github.com/shlomif/what-you-should-know-about-automated-testing ? > In theory what I need is a way to: 1. Get a boolean indicating if any > errors were found. 2. Give me a list of disliked words so I can correct or > whitelist them. > > Should I use https://linux.die.net/man/3/hspell ? > > > -- > Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ > > Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature. > > Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . > -- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliz at gnu.org Sat Jun 1 20:20:21 2019 From: eliz at gnu.org (Eli Zaretskii) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2019 20:20:21 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: (message from Shlomi Fish on Sat, 1 Jun 2019 19:49:32 +0300) References: Message-ID: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> > From: Shlomi Fish > Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 19:49:32 +0300 > > So I created this branch - https://github.com/shlomif/shlomi-fish-homepage/tree/spell-check-hebrew (note the > branch name). Which adds autochecking using https://metacpan.org/pod/Text::Hunspell . However many > legitimate Hebrew words are marked as errors: FWIW, using Hunspell and he_IL dictionary, I see only a small number of words from this list marked as misspellings: ????? - should be "??????" ?????-?'??? - this is not Hebrew ?????? - this is incorrect Hebrew ?????????? - should be "?????????" ????-????? - should be "????-????" ????????? - not a Hebrew word ???? - should be "???" ???? - should be "?????" ??????? - not a Hebrew word ????? - ditto ????? - should be "????" and a few more. Maybe your dictionary is not the best one? From shlomif at gmail.com Sat Jun 1 20:34:25 2019 From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 20:34:25 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: Thanks Eli! On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 8:20 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Shlomi Fish > > Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 19:49:32 +0300 > > > > So I created this branch - > https://github.com/shlomif/shlomi-fish-homepage/tree/spell-check-hebrew > (note the > > branch name). Which adds autochecking using > https://metacpan.org/pod/Text::Hunspell . However many > > legitimate Hebrew words are marked as errors: > > FWIW, using Hunspell and he_IL dictionary, I see only a small number > of words from this list marked as misspellings: > > ????? - should be "??????" > ?????-?'??? - this is not Hebrew > ?????? - this is incorrect Hebrew > ?????????? - should be "?????????" > ????-????? - should be "????-????" > ????????? - not a Hebrew word > ???? - should be "???" > ???? - should be "?????" > ??????? - not a Hebrew word > ????? - ditto > ????? - should be "????" > > and a few more. > > Maybe your dictionary is not the best one? > I am on Mageia Linux v7 using: ``` shlomif[cleanup]:~$ rpm -qil hunspell-he Name : hunspell-he Version : 1.4 Release : 2.mga7 Architecture: noarch Install Date: Mon 18 Feb 2019 12:13:52 IST Group : System/Internationalization Size : 7875297 License : LGPL Signature : RSA/SHA256, Tue 25 Sep 2018 22:53:10 IDT, Key ID b742fa8b80420f66 Source RPM : hspell-1.4-2.mga7.src.rpm Build Date : Tue 25 Sep 2018 22:32:02 IDT Build Host : localhost Relocations : (not relocatable) Packager : umeabot Vendor : Mageia.Org URL : http://hspell.ivrix.org.il/ Summary : Hebrew hunspell dictionaries Description : Hebrew hunspell dictionaries /usr/share/hunspell/he_IL.aff /usr/share/hunspell/he_IL.dic /usr/share/myspell/he_IL.aff /usr/share/myspell/he_IL.dic ``` Latest version as https://packages.debian.org/sid/hspell . What is your OS/dist/version? -- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shlomif at gmail.com Sat Jun 1 20:47:29 2019 From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 20:47:29 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: References: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 8:34 PM Shlomi Fish wrote: > Thanks Eli! > > > On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 8:20 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> > From: Shlomi Fish >> > Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 19:49:32 +0300 >> > >> > So I created this branch - >> https://github.com/shlomif/shlomi-fish-homepage/tree/spell-check-hebrew >> (note the >> > branch name). Which adds autochecking using >> https://metacpan.org/pod/Text::Hunspell . However many >> > legitimate Hebrew words are marked as errors: >> >> FWIW, using Hunspell and he_IL dictionary, I see only a small number >> of words from this list marked as misspellings: >> >> ????? - should be "??????" >> ?????-?'??? - this is not Hebrew >> ?????? - this is incorrect Hebrew >> ?????????? - should be "?????????" >> ????-????? - should be "????-????" >> ????????? - not a Hebrew word >> ???? - should be "???" >> ???? - should be "?????" >> ??????? - not a Hebrew word >> ????? - ditto >> ????? - should be "????" >> >> and a few more. >> >> Maybe your dictionary is not the best one? >> > > I am on Mageia Linux v7 using: > > ``` > shlomif[cleanup]:~$ rpm -qil hunspell-he > Name : hunspell-he > Version : 1.4 > Release : 2.mga7 > Architecture: noarch > Install Date: Mon 18 Feb 2019 12:13:52 IST > Group : System/Internationalization > Size : 7875297 > License : LGPL > Signature : RSA/SHA256, Tue 25 Sep 2018 22:53:10 IDT, Key ID > b742fa8b80420f66 > Source RPM : hspell-1.4-2.mga7.src.rpm > Build Date : Tue 25 Sep 2018 22:32:02 IDT > Build Host : localhost > Relocations : (not relocatable) > Packager : umeabot > Vendor : Mageia.Org > URL : http://hspell.ivrix.org.il/ > Summary : Hebrew hunspell dictionaries > Description : > Hebrew hunspell dictionaries > /usr/share/hunspell/he_IL.aff > /usr/share/hunspell/he_IL.dic > /usr/share/myspell/he_IL.aff > /usr/share/myspell/he_IL.dic > ``` > > Latest version as https://packages.debian.org/sid/hspell . What is your > OS/dist/version? > > Moreover, how are you using/invoking hunspell? Can you show a shell session? > -- > Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ > > Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature. > > Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . > -- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliz at gnu.org Sat Jun 1 20:56:24 2019 From: eliz at gnu.org (Eli Zaretskii) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2019 20:56:24 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: (message from Shlomi Fish on Sat, 1 Jun 2019 20:47:29 +0300) References: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <83sgstur3r.fsf@gnu.org> > From: Shlomi Fish > Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 20:47:29 +0300 > Cc: Linux-IL , "Nadav Har'El" , > danken at users.sourceforge.net > > Latest version as https://packages.debian.org/sid/hspell . What is your OS/dist/version? I use the same dictionary downloaded years ago from the Ivrix project. Hunspell version is 1.3.2. > Moreover, how are you using/invoking hunspell? Can you show a shell session? I spell-checked your list in Emacs, using flyspell-region. What do you want to know about the invocation? I used UTF-8 encoding to communicate to Hunspell, if that's the question. From shlomif at gmail.com Sat Jun 1 22:56:28 2019 From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish) Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 22:56:28 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: <83sgstur3r.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> <83sgstur3r.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 8:57 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Shlomi Fish > > Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 20:47:29 +0300 > > Cc: Linux-IL , "Nadav Har'El" , > > > danken at users.sourceforge.net > > > > Latest version as https://packages.debian.org/sid/hspell . What is > your OS/dist/version? > > I use the same dictionary downloaded years ago from the Ivrix > project. Hunspell version is 1.3.2. > > Ah, I have hunspell-1.7.0 and hspell 1.4. > > Moreover, how are you using/invoking hunspell? Can you show a shell > session? > > I spell-checked your list in Emacs, using flyspell-region. What > do you want to know about the invocation? I used UTF-8 encoding to > communicate to Hunspell, if that's the question. > Well, there may be a difference in the way flyspell uses hunspell/hspell and the way https://metacpan.org/pod/Text::Hunspell does. We need to figure out what goes wrong on my end. Thanks! -- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliz at gnu.org Sun Jun 2 17:52:54 2019 From: eliz at gnu.org (Eli Zaretskii) Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2019 17:52:54 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: (message from Shlomi Fish on Sat, 1 Jun 2019 22:56:28 +0300) References: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> <83sgstur3r.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <83k1e4uji1.fsf@gnu.org> > From: Shlomi Fish > Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 22:56:28 +0300 > Cc: Linux-IL , "Nadav Har'El" , > danken at users.sourceforge.net > > I use the same dictionary downloaded years ago from the Ivrix > project. Hunspell version is 1.3.2. > > Ah, I have hunspell-1.7.0 and hspell 1.4. I don't think it should make any difference. > > Moreover, how are you using/invoking hunspell? Can you show a shell session? > > I spell-checked your list in Emacs, using flyspell-region. What > do you want to know about the invocation? I used UTF-8 encoding to > communicate to Hunspell, if that's the question. > > Well, there may be a difference in the way flyspell uses hunspell/hspell and the way > https://metacpan.org/pod/Text::Hunspell does. We need to figure out what goes wrong on my end. OK, so from the shell prompt, invoking Hunspell like this: hunspell -d he_IL -i utf-8 -L hewords.txt where hewords.txt is a UTF-8 encoded text file with the list of the words you sent, gives me just 18 mis-spelled words: ????? ?????-?'??? ?????? ?????????? ????-????? ????????? ???? ???? ???????? ??????? ????? ???????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ?????? All of the mis-spellings look reasonable to me. Do you get the same result if you invoke Hunspell like above? From shlomif at gmail.com Sun Jun 2 20:31:02 2019 From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 20:31:02 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: <83k1e4uji1.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> <83sgstur3r.fsf@gnu.org> <83k1e4uji1.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: Hi Eli and all, first note that after playing a little with https://github.com/eranroz/HspellPy , the mageia hspell package and with https://metacpan.org/pod/distribution/Inline-Python/Python.pod , I was able to overcome the issue in my code. Thanks for the motivation. On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 5:53 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Shlomi Fish > > Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 22:56:28 +0300 > > Cc: Linux-IL , "Nadav Har'El" , > > > danken at users.sourceforge.net > > > > I use the same dictionary downloaded years ago from the Ivrix > > project. Hunspell version is 1.3.2. > > > > Ah, I have hunspell-1.7.0 and hspell 1.4. > > I don't think it should make any difference. > > Right. > > Moreover, how are you using/invoking hunspell? Can you show a shell > session? > > > > I spell-checked your list in Emacs, using flyspell-region. What > > do you want to know about the invocation? I used UTF-8 encoding to > > communicate to Hunspell, if that's the question. > > > > Well, there may be a difference in the way flyspell uses hunspell/hspell > and the way > > https://metacpan.org/pod/Text::Hunspell does. We need to figure out > what goes wrong on my end. > > OK, so from the shell prompt, invoking Hunspell like this: > > hunspell -d he_IL -i utf-8 -L hewords.txt > > where hewords.txt is a UTF-8 encoded text file with the list of the > words you sent, gives me just 18 mis-spelled words: > > ????? > ?????-?'??? > ?????? > ?????????? > ????-????? > ????????? > ???? > ???? > ???????? > ??????? > ????? > ???????? > ????? > ????? > ??? > ??????? > ??????? > ?????? > > All of the mis-spellings look reasonable to me. > > Do you get the same result if you invoke Hunspell like above? > I'll try, thanks. -- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shlomif at gmail.com Sun Jun 2 23:11:40 2019 From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 23:11:40 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: References: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> <83sgstur3r.fsf@gnu.org> <83k1e4uji1.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: Hi! On my system that cmdline invocation gives me this on stdout: ``` ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ????????? ???? ???? ??????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???????? ?????? ?????? ???????? ????? ????-???? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???????? ???????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ???????? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ``` So it does not work as it should. Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliz at gnu.org Mon Jun 3 05:36:41 2019 From: eliz at gnu.org (Eli Zaretskii) Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2019 05:36:41 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: (message from Shlomi Fish on Sun, 2 Jun 2019 23:11:40 +0300) References: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> <83sgstur3r.fsf@gnu.org> <83k1e4uji1.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <8336krv1hi.fsf@gnu.org> > From: Shlomi Fish > Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 23:11:40 +0300 > Cc: Linux-IL , "Nadav Har'El" , > danken at users.sourceforge.net > > On my system that cmdline invocation gives me this on stdout: Can you tell me where I can download the precise dictionary you are using? From shlomif at gmail.com Wed Jun 5 15:52:49 2019 From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 15:52:49 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: <8336krv1hi.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> <83sgstur3r.fsf@gnu.org> <83k1e4uji1.fsf@gnu.org> <8336krv1hi.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: Hi Eli! Sorry for the late reply. On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 5:36 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Shlomi Fish > > Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 23:11:40 +0300 > > Cc: Linux-IL , "Nadav Har'El" , > > > danken at users.sourceforge.net > > > > On my system that cmdline invocation gives me this on stdout: > > Can you tell me where I can download the precise dictionary you are > using? > They are part of the mageia 7 x86-64 packages. See http://mirror.isoc.org.il/pub/mageia/distrib/7/ . You can try https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rpm2cpio&atb=v140-1&ia=web or building from source. Note that I already got it working for my use case so it is not too critical. -- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eliz at gnu.org Wed Jun 5 18:11:27 2019 From: eliz at gnu.org (Eli Zaretskii) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2019 18:11:27 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: (message from Shlomi Fish on Wed, 5 Jun 2019 15:52:49 +0300) References: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> <83sgstur3r.fsf@gnu.org> <83k1e4uji1.fsf@gnu.org> <8336krv1hi.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: <83r288rrs0.fsf@gnu.org> > From: Shlomi Fish > Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 15:52:49 +0300 > Cc: Linux-IL , "Nadav Har'El" , > danken at users.sourceforge.net > > Can you tell me where I can download the precise dictionary you are > using? > > They are part of the mageia 7 x86-64 packages. See http://mirror.isoc.org.il/pub/mageia/distrib/7/ . You can try > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rpm2cpio&atb=v140-1&ia=web or building from source. Note that I already got it > working for my use case so it is not too critical. I'm using the dictionary from an earlier version of this distribution, 1.1-6 (you pointed me to 1.4-2). My version of Hunspell refuses to load this dictionary: it complains about multiple table definition on line 3371. And indeed, there are 2 lines in the aff file which say "MAP 10". I don't know enough about Hunspell internals to figure out whether this could or couldn't be the culprit. My suggestion would be to upgrade to the latest version of Hunspell (1.7.0, AFAIK), and if that doesn't fix the problem, report a bug to the distribution maintainers. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. From shlomo.solomon at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 12:33:36 2019 From: shlomo.solomon at gmail.com (Shlomo Solomon) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:33:36 +0300 Subject: scanning with a Pantum M6600 Message-ID: <20190613123336.13e94c1a@shlomo1.solomon> I have a Pantum M6600 multifunction printer - USB only - no WiFi. Printing works fine on my Kubuntu box (after installing a driver). I can also scan using xsane or gscantopdf. But when I press the physical scan button on the printer, I get a message on the printer's LCD screen: "PC unresponsive". I assume it's "looking for" a Windows PC. In fact, when I connect it to a Windows machine, the scan works and is saved in D:\Users\solomon\Pictures. Does anyone have an idea how to get this to work on Linux? Probably not relevant, but the output of usb-devices is: T: Bus=03 Lev=02 Prnt=03 Port=03 Cnt=02 Dev#= 22 Spd=12 MxCh= 0 D: Ver= 2.00 Cls=00(>ifc ) Sub=00 Prot=00 MxPS=64 #Cfgs= 1 P: Vendor=232b ProdID=3f20 Rev=01.00 S: Manufacturer=Pantum S: Product=M6600 series S: SerialNumber=CB7B002213 C: #Ifs= 3 Cfg#= 1 Atr=c0 MxPwr=98mA I: If#= 0 Alt= 0 #EPs= 2 Cls=07(print) Sub=01 Prot=02 Driver=usblp I: If#= 1 Alt= 0 #EPs= 3 Cls=ff(vend.) Sub=ff Prot=ff Driver=(none) I: If#= 2 Alt= 0 #EPs= 2 Cls=07(print) Sub=01 Prot=02 Driver=usblp -- Shlomo Solomon http://the-solomons.net Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04 From govershay at gmail.com Thu Jun 13 12:45:08 2019 From: govershay at gmail.com (Shay Gover) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:45:08 +0300 Subject: scanning with a Pantum M6600 In-Reply-To: <20190613123336.13e94c1a@shlomo1.solomon> References: <20190613123336.13e94c1a@shlomo1.solomon> Message-ID: Try asking in the ubuntu forums.Usually it's because no one implemnted this feature. On Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 12:34 Shlomo Solomon wrote: > I have a Pantum M6600 multifunction printer - USB only - no WiFi. > > Printing works fine on my Kubuntu box (after installing a driver). > > I can also scan using xsane or gscantopdf. > > But when I press the physical scan button on the printer, I get a > message on the printer's LCD screen: "PC unresponsive". I assume it's > "looking for" a Windows PC. In fact, when I connect it to a Windows > machine, the scan works and is saved in D:\Users\solomon\Pictures. > > Does anyone have an idea how to get this to work on Linux? > > > Probably not relevant, but the output of usb-devices is: > > > T: Bus=03 Lev=02 Prnt=03 Port=03 Cnt=02 Dev#= 22 Spd=12 MxCh= 0 > D: Ver= 2.00 Cls=00(>ifc ) Sub=00 Prot=00 MxPS=64 #Cfgs= 1 > P: Vendor=232b ProdID=3f20 Rev=01.00 > S: Manufacturer=Pantum > S: Product=M6600 series > S: SerialNumber=CB7B002213 > C: #Ifs= 3 Cfg#= 1 Atr=c0 MxPwr=98mA > I: If#= 0 Alt= 0 #EPs= 2 Cls=07(print) Sub=01 Prot=02 Driver=usblp > I: If#= 1 Alt= 0 #EPs= 3 Cls=ff(vend.) Sub=ff Prot=ff Driver=(none) > I: If#= 2 Alt= 0 #EPs= 2 Cls=07(print) Sub=01 Prot=02 Driver=usblp > > > > > > -- > Shlomo Solomon > http://the-solomons.net > Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04 > > _______________________________________________ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geoff at QuiteLikely.com Thu Jun 13 13:15:38 2019 From: geoff at QuiteLikely.com (Geoff Shang) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 13:15:38 +0300 (IDT) Subject: scanning with a Pantum M6600 In-Reply-To: <20190613123336.13e94c1a@shlomo1.solomon> References: <20190613123336.13e94c1a@shlomo1.solomon> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Jun 2019, Shlomo Solomon wrote: > I have a Pantum M6600 multifunction printer - USB only - no WiFi. > > Printing works fine on my Kubuntu box (after installing a driver). > > I can also scan using xsane or gscantopdf. > > But when I press the physical scan button on the printer, I get a > message on the printer's LCD screen: "PC unresponsive". I assume it's > "looking for" a Windows PC. In fact, when I connect it to a Windows > machine, the scan works and is saved in D:\Users\solomon\Pictures. > > Does anyone have an idea how to get this to work on Linux? A quick search suggests that scanbd is what you need. http://scanbd.sf.net/ There's a Debian package, so I'm guessing there's a Ubuntu one too. HTH, Geoff. From slitt at troubleshooters.com Fri Jun 14 04:52:44 2019 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 21:52:44 -0400 Subject: New Nginx documentation for beginners Message-ID: <20190613215244.72bf5cbb@mydesk.domain.cxm> Hi all, I just put up several nginx documents helpful to those who don't yet have a complete knowledge of nginx. You can access them all from the following URL: http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nginx/ Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt June 2019 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive From shlomif at gmail.com Fri Jun 14 12:03:34 2019 From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 12:03:34 +0300 Subject: New Nginx documentation for beginners In-Reply-To: <20190613215244.72bf5cbb@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20190613215244.72bf5cbb@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: Hi Steve, On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:41 AM Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > I just put up several nginx documents helpful to those who don't yet > have a complete knowledge of nginx. You can access them all from the > following URL: > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nginx/ > > thanks for sharing. However given the current copyrights laws I'd rather not risk reading something that is under this: http://www.troubleshooters.com/cpyright.htm . Given there are many resources under less restrictive licences: https://www.google.com/search?as_rights=(cc_publicdomain|cc_attribute|cc_sharealike).-(cc_noncommercial|cc_nonderived)&q=nginx&hl= Can you relicense these pages? As usual, IANAL / etc. See https://www.shlomifish.org/meta/copyrights/ for my site's copyright terms and also see this discussion - https://github.com/perlorg/perlweb/issues/63 . Regards, -- Shlomi > Thanks, > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > June 2019 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times > http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive > > _______________________________________________ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > -- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shlomif at gmail.com Fri Jun 14 12:58:45 2019 From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 12:58:45 +0300 Subject: How do I use hspell / hunspell hebrew as part of an HTML site test suite? In-Reply-To: <83r288rrs0.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83tvd9usru.fsf@gnu.org> <83sgstur3r.fsf@gnu.org> <83k1e4uji1.fsf@gnu.org> <8336krv1hi.fsf@gnu.org> <83r288rrs0.fsf@gnu.org> Message-ID: Hi Eli, sorry for the late reply. On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 6:11 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Shlomi Fish > > Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 15:52:49 +0300 > > Cc: Linux-IL , "Nadav Har'El" , > > > danken at users.sourceforge.net > > > > Can you tell me where I can download the precise dictionary you are > > using? > > > > They are part of the mageia 7 x86-64 packages. See > http://mirror.isoc.org.il/pub/mageia/distrib/7/ . You can try > > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=rpm2cpio&atb=v140-1&ia=web or building from > source. Note that I already got it > > working for my use case so it is not too critical. > > I'm using the dictionary from an earlier version of this distribution, > 1.1-6 (you pointed me to 1.4-2). My version of Hunspell refuses to > load this dictionary: it complains about multiple table definition on > line 3371. And indeed, there are 2 lines in the aff file which say > "MAP 10". > > I don't know enough about Hunspell internals to figure out whether > this could or couldn't be the culprit. My suggestion would be to > upgrade to the latest version of Hunspell (1.7.0, AFAIK), and if that > doesn't fix the problem, report a bug to the distribution maintainers. > > I am already using 1.7.0 which is indeed the latest - https://github.com/hunspell/hunspell/releases . > Sorry I couldn't be of more help. > -- Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sat Jun 15 09:17:46 2019 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 02:17:46 -0400 Subject: New Nginx documentation for beginners In-Reply-To: References: <20190613215244.72bf5cbb@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20190615021746.5bf265c0@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 12:03:34 +0300 Shlomi Fish wrote: > Hi Steve, > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:41 AM Steve Litt > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > I just put up several nginx documents helpful to those who don't yet > > have a complete knowledge of nginx. You can access them all from the > > following URL: > > > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nginx/ > > > > > thanks for sharing. However given the current copyrights laws I'd > rather not risk reading something that is under this: > http://www.troubleshooters.com/cpyright.htm . What's your specific hesitation with http://www.troubleshooters.com/cpyright.htm ? Would it eliminate that hesitation if all verbiage below "Transmission Through Certain Servers and Protocols is Prohibited" were eliminated? Once upon a time there was a very good reason for that verbiage, but that was 18 years ago. I'll have to think about it, but I could probably eliminate "Transmission Through Certain Servers and Protocols is Prohibited" and everything below, at which time it would be a simple free-as-in-beer license. SteveT Steve Litt June 2019 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive From w1 at zak.co.il Sat Jun 15 12:59:42 2019 From: w1 at zak.co.il (Omer Zak) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 12:59:42 +0300 Subject: Copyright protection against hijackers (Re: New Nginx documentation for beginners) In-Reply-To: <20190615021746.5bf265c0@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20190613215244.72bf5cbb@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20190615021746.5bf265c0@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <1560592782.6805.64.camel@zak.co.il> After reviewing the "problematic" section in Steve Litt's copyright statement, I'd urge Steve Litt to retain the "problematic" section. While the threat it is protecting him (and all of us) against does not seem to exist today, it might re-emerge in the future. The section in question is not more problematic than the various boobytrap provisions which RMS added to the GPL to prevent it from being nullified in court. In fact, the more Websites add such provisions to their copyrights, the more difficult would it be for transmission and storage actors in the Internet to claim copyright in the material passing through them. --- Omer Zak On Sat, 2019-06-15 at 02:17 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 12:03:34 +0300 > Shlomi Fish wrote: > > > Hi Steve, > > > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 5:41 AM Steve Litt > om> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I just put up several nginx documents helpful to those who don't > > > yet > > > have a complete knowledge of nginx. You can access them all from > > > the > > > following URL: > > > > > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nginx/ > > > > > > ? > > > > thanks for sharing. However given the current copyrights laws I'd > > rather not risk reading something that is under this: > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/cpyright.htm .? > > What's your specific hesitation with > http://www.troubleshooters.com/cpyright.htm ? Would it eliminate that > hesitation if all verbiage below "Transmission Through Certain > Servers > and Protocols is Prohibited" were eliminated? > > Once upon a time there was a very good reason for that verbiage, but > that was 18 years ago. I'll have to think about it, but I could > probably eliminate "Transmission Through Certain Servers > and Protocols is Prohibited" and everything below, at which time it > would be a simple free-as-in-beer license. -- "Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man." - Walter E. Williams My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS:??at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html From shlomo.solomon at gmail.com Tue Jun 18 09:23:50 2019 From: shlomo.solomon at gmail.com (Shlomo Solomon) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:23:50 +0300 Subject: What's so secure about sudo? Message-ID: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> This has bothered me for years and I decided to "get it off my chest". For many years I used su to do administrative tasks, but "everyone" uses sudo and the claim is that it's more secure than actually logging in as root. In principal, of course, root login is not a good thing, but let's remember something I've never seen discussed. I would assume that on most systems the root password is MUCH more secure than that of a regular user. Now if I give user david sudo privileges, anyone who cracks david's (weak) password now has access to root privileges. And before anyone says that this is only a one-time authorization, what if the guy who cracked david's password now does: sudo passwd root So what's so secure about using sudo? -- Shlomo Solomon http://the-solomons.net Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04 From w1 at zak.co.il Tue Jun 18 09:53:30 2019 From: w1 at zak.co.il (Omer Zak) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 09:53:30 +0300 Subject: What's so secure about sudo? In-Reply-To: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> References: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> Message-ID: <1560840810.6805.134.camel@zak.co.il> Using /etc/sudoers and /etc/sudoers.d, it is possible to limit the operations that an user can do as a superuser. It is even possible to configure some operations as ones not requiring him to enter his password. See 'man 5 sudoers'. On Tue, 2019-06-18 at 09:23 +0300, Shlomo Solomon wrote: > This has bothered me for years and I decided to "get it off my > chest". > > For many years I used su to do administrative tasks, but "everyone" > uses sudo and the claim is that it's more secure than actually > logging > in as root.? > > In principal, of course, root login is not a good thing, but let's > remember something I've never seen discussed. I would assume that on > most systems the root password is MUCH more secure than that of a > regular user. Now if I give user david sudo privileges, anyone who > cracks david's (weak) password now has access to root privileges.? > > And before anyone says that this is only a one-time authorization, > what > if the guy who cracked david's password now does: > ???????sudo passwd root > > So what's so secure about using sudo???? -- "Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man." - Walter E. Williams My own blog is at https://tddpirate.zak.co.il/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS:??at https://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html From boruch_baum at gmx.com Tue Jun 18 10:07:32 2019 From: boruch_baum at gmx.com (Boruch Baum) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 03:07:32 -0400 Subject: What's so secure about sudo? In-Reply-To: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> References: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> Message-ID: <20190618070732.2qyvzfx62ayinlsb@E15-2016.optimum.net> In addition to Omer's answer, it used to be common on large multi-user systems to have the sudo use of each user logged, for accountability. On 2019-06-18 09:23, Shlomo Solomon wrote: > This has bothered me for years and I decided to "get it off my chest". > > For many years I used su to do administrative tasks, but "everyone" > uses sudo and the claim is that it's more secure than actually logging > in as root. > > In principal, of course, root login is not a good thing, but let's > remember something I've never seen discussed. I would assume that on > most systems the root password is MUCH more secure than that of a > regular user. Now if I give user david sudo privileges, anyone who > cracks david's (weak) password now has access to root privileges. > > And before anyone says that this is only a one-time authorization, what > if the guy who cracked david's password now does: > sudo passwd root > > So what's so secure about using sudo? > -- hkp://keys.gnupg.net CA45 09B5 5351 7C11 A9D1 7286 0036 9E45 1595 8BC0 From dotancohen at gmail.com Tue Jun 18 10:38:00 2019 From: dotancohen at gmail.com (Dotan Cohen) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 10:38:00 +0300 Subject: What's so secure about sudo? In-Reply-To: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> References: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> Message-ID: One reason that I like sudo is that root can be disabled for all intents and purposes. Most random SSH logins were once to the root account. We hardly ever see that anymore, thanks in no small part to the deprecation of root in many widespread Linux distros. On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 9:24 AM Shlomo Solomon wrote: > > This has bothered me for years and I decided to "get it off my chest". > > For many years I used su to do administrative tasks, but "everyone" > uses sudo and the claim is that it's more secure than actually logging > in as root. > > In principal, of course, root login is not a good thing, but let's > remember something I've never seen discussed. I would assume that on > most systems the root password is MUCH more secure than that of a > regular user. Now if I give user david sudo privileges, anyone who > cracks david's (weak) password now has access to root privileges. > > And before anyone says that this is only a one-time authorization, what > if the guy who cracked david's password now does: > sudo passwd root > > So what's so secure about using sudo? > > -- > Shlomo Solomon > http://the-solomons.net > Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04 > > _______________________________________________ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com From uri at speedy.net Tue Jun 18 16:23:25 2019 From: uri at speedy.net (=?UTF-8?B?15DXldeo15k=?=) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 16:23:25 +0300 Subject: What's so secure about sudo? In-Reply-To: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> References: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> Message-ID: I'm not an expert, but I found out that if I login as a regular user, I use sedo only when necessary. But when I login as root (which I do) I am root all the time. This may cause problems if by mistake I enter a command which might cause a big damage as root, but not a big damage as a regular user. Such as, for example, rm -f. So the security issue is also for me entering as a legitimate user and accidentally writing a wrong command. Which will probably not happen with sedo. Especially when sedos require for me to enter my password. Anyway, some servers I manage I am able to login as root and some not, as root login there is disabled. I'm not an expert is security but I think usually my servers are not cracked/hacked as long as I keep the passwords secure. If I login as root and don't make mistakes such as above, I don't see why logging in as root is less secure than sedo. By the way, sometimes I login as a regular user and then su. I don't remember if this option is enabled in all my servers. ???? uri at speedy.net On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 9:24 AM Shlomo Solomon wrote: > This has bothered me for years and I decided to "get it off my chest". > > For many years I used su to do administrative tasks, but "everyone" > uses sudo and the claim is that it's more secure than actually logging > in as root. > > In principal, of course, root login is not a good thing, but let's > remember something I've never seen discussed. I would assume that on > most systems the root password is MUCH more secure than that of a > regular user. Now if I give user david sudo privileges, anyone who > cracks david's (weak) password now has access to root privileges. > > And before anyone says that this is only a one-time authorization, what > if the guy who cracked david's password now does: > sudo passwd root > > So what's so secure about using sudo? > > -- > Shlomo Solomon > http://the-solomons.net > Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04 > > _______________________________________________ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rabin at rabin.io Tue Jun 18 17:20:24 2019 From: rabin at rabin.io (Rabin Yasharzadehe) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 17:20:24 +0300 Subject: What's so secure about sudo? In-Reply-To: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> References: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> Message-ID: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0purspHg-o * https://www.bsdcan.org/2014/schedule/attachments/283_2014-04-29%20sudo%20tutorial%20-%20bsdcan%202014.pdf -- Rabin On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 at 09:25, Shlomo Solomon wrote: > This has bothered me for years and I decided to "get it off my chest". > > For many years I used su to do administrative tasks, but "everyone" > uses sudo and the claim is that it's more secure than actually logging > in as root. > > In principal, of course, root login is not a good thing, but let's > remember something I've never seen discussed. I would assume that on > most systems the root password is MUCH more secure than that of a > regular user. Now if I give user david sudo privileges, anyone who > cracks david's (weak) password now has access to root privileges. > > And before anyone says that this is only a one-time authorization, what > if the guy who cracked david's password now does: > sudo passwd root > > So what's so secure about using sudo? > > -- > Shlomo Solomon > http://the-solomons.net > Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04 > > _______________________________________________ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From guy1gold at gmail.com Tue Jun 18 19:38:49 2019 From: guy1gold at gmail.com (Guy Gold) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 12:38:49 -0400 Subject: What's so secure about sudo? In-Reply-To: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> References: <20190618092350.12200835@shlomo1.solomon> Message-ID: > So what's so secure about using sudo? Good question :) For a standalone system, used by a single user, it can be fairly easily argued that 'sudo' vs. 'su' is redundant. The advantages of 'sudo' come in when a system is accessed by multiple users, who's errors might be costly. And, as mentioned, when coupled with a creative /etc/sudoers.d/ setup, can provide a system with useful execution limitation, accountability, and tractability of action taken by users. -- Guy Gold