<div dir="ltr">fyi, according to this:<br><br><a href="http://gs.statcounter.com/?nomore=ie6#browser_version-ww-weekly-200827-200951">http://gs.statcounter.com/?nomore=ie6#browser_version-ww-weekly-200827-200951</a><br><br>
ff 3.5 is the most popular browser in the world right now (per version).<br><br>tom.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2009/12/20 Shlomi Fish <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:shlomif@iglu.org.il">shlomif@iglu.org.il</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Hi Uri!<br>
<br>
Just a note - please break your E-mails into paragraphs better, and please be<br>
less passionate-sounding and more informative. I find it hard to communicate<br>
with you.<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
On Sunday 20 Dec 2009 13:53:30 Uri Even-Chen wrote:<br>
> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Shlomi Fish <<a href="mailto:shlomif@iglu.org.il">shlomif@iglu.org.il</a>> wrote:<br>
> > On Sunday 20 Dec 2009 13:13:01 Uri Even-Chen wrote:<br>
> >> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Dotan Cohen <<a href="mailto:dotancohen@gmail.com">dotancohen@gmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
> >> >> I also have a problem with Bank Hapoalim on Firefox. The numbers are<br>
> >> >> switched, instead of "(1) דואר נכנס" I get "דואר נכנס )1(" (the<br>
> >> >> number is on the right) and instead of "(25) סל מיחזור" I get "רוזחימ<br>
> >> >> לס )52(" - I get 52 instead of 25.<br>
> >> ><br>
> >> > It sounds like they are using visual encoding, which makes them<br>
> >> > idiots. You will find that leads to problems in IE, too, like<br>
> >> > searching in the browser or copying text.<br>
> >><br>
> >> They save time and money by not checking browsers such as Google<br>
> >> Chrome and Firefox. I worked once in a web developing company, and<br>
> >> they told me their contract with the customer is that the website<br>
> >> works with Internet Explorer only. They told me not to check the<br>
> >> website with Firefox! They don't care, the customer doesn't pay for<br>
> >> checking with Firefox and they don't check it at all. Most web<br>
> >> developing companies work like that. Banks too, they hire web<br>
> >> developers (sometimes outsourcing) and they pay them to make the site<br>
> >> look fine with Internet Explorer. They don't bother to check with<br>
> >> Google Chrome, Opera, Firefox, although it's only about 10% more of<br>
> >> the developing time. They save money!<br>
> ><br>
> > You're describing a situation that may have been "true" (and I'm putting<br>
> > "true" in quotes) a few years ago. But right now, you must be either very<br>
> > clueless or out-of-your-mind or both to not support Firefox and other<br>
> > more standards-compliant browsers. While it is true that MSIE still has<br>
> > an 80% market share (possibly less by now - it keeps losing it), as<br>
> > someone noted to me on IRC, this is the bottom 80% of the web surfers. By<br>
> > all means, you do wish to cater to the more clueful people who are using<br>
> > Firefox and other "alternative" browsers.<br>
> ><br>
> > Furthermore, there are other factors:<br>
> ><br>
> > 1. Web designers who test their pages in Firefox and design according to<br>
> > web standards tend to be more clueful than their FrontPage weenies<br>
> > counterparts, and as a result produce better, more sustainable and safer<br>
> > code.<br>
> ><br>
> > 2. You are likely to lose customers who will refuse to switch to MSIE to<br>
> > browse your site, or have to handle many complaints from people that your<br>
> > web- site does not work for them.<br>
> ><br>
> > 3. Your pages may easily break with newer versions of MSIE, which will<br>
> > require update.<br>
> ><br>
> > 4. There are other advantages:<br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/by-others/mashhoor--10-reasons--" target="_blank">http://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/by-others/mashhoor--10-reasons--</a><br>
> > hebrew.html<br>
> ><br>
> > (short URL - <a href="http://xrl.us/bgpzhg" target="_blank">http://xrl.us/bgpzhg</a> )<br>
> ><br>
> > -------------<br>
> ><br>
> > So they are not saving money in the long run or even not in the short<br>
> > run.<br>
><br>
> If they were not saving money, they wouldn't do it at all! Money is<br>
> the reason why they do it, like I said they save maybe 10% or 15% of<br>
> the total web developing time, and I agree they save money only in<br>
> short terms, but that's how businesses work!<br>
<br>
</div></div>How do you know they are actually saving money? Maybe it's a bad decision and<br>
they are losing money. Businesses are making bad decisions that lose them<br>
money all the time, and we are allowed to question them.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> They don't care about<br>
> 20% of the users,<br>
<br>
</div>They should. These are the top 20% of the users. I switched banks because my<br>
old bank's web-site did not support Firefox, which was probably indicative of<br>
many other problems with it. Losing 20% of the users just because you don't<br>
want to test on Firefox (which actually makes you lose web-development money,<br>
and even if it did have some added cost, would be completely worth it in the<br>
added constant sales and usage of the site later on - a site serves a purpose<br>
and is not an end in itself), is a bad business decision.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> I told you the website of Bank Hapoalim, the biggest<br>
> bank in the country, has problems with Firefox and Google Chrome.<br>
> With Firefox it's minor problems, but still there are problems which<br>
> they could solve! And with Google Chrome it's a more annoying<br>
> problem. They don't care about standards,<br>
<br>
</div>Then they are stupid.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> if they don't pay web<br>
> developers to test other browsers then they don't test at all! I<br>
> prefer Internet Explorer as an end user, as a developer I always test<br>
> at least Firefox, for example you can check <a href="http://www.speedywhois.net" target="_blank">www.speedywhois.net</a> and<br>
> see for yourself. But if I work as an employee, and my boss tells me<br>
> not to test Firefox - I don't have a choice. I can't do things<br>
> against my boss!<br>
<br>
</div>Yes, you can't. But then the problem is with your boss, and I am allowed to<br>
criticise their decisions. You are also allowed to quit because you know it<br>
may not end well, and will look bad on your future C.V..<br>
<div class="im"><br>
><br>
> By the way, I tried to report to the bank, they gave me a captcha, (I<br>
> hate captchas), I made a mistake and they deleted my feedback.<br>
<br>
</div>I hate captchas too. They are a huge accessibility and usability problem.<br>
(Though textual/mathematical captchas are not too bad). And there are ways for<br>
spammers to overcome them (though sometimes it can be a good anti-measure).<br>
<div class="im"><br>
> I<br>
> didn't have time to type it again... the banks such, they are really<br>
> bad when it comes to supporting computer technologies, and their<br>
> business depends on computers!<br>
><br>
<br>
</div>Yes, indeed. I should note that so far I didn't have any major problems with<br>
the Firefox support of the <a href="http://fibi.co.il" target="_blank">fibi.co.il</a> site, which is my current bank, and it<br>
has an excellent reputation among Firefox users. Firefox support problems and<br>
such annoying misuse of Captchas may be indicative of much more major problems<br>
in the site and cluelessness as far as the web-designers are concerned.<br>
<div class="im"><br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Shlomi Fish<br>
<br>
--<br>
-----------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Shlomi Fish <a href="http://www.shlomifish.org/" target="_blank">http://www.shlomifish.org/</a><br>
</div>My Aphorisms - <a href="http://www.shlomifish.org/humour.html" target="_blank">http://www.shlomifish.org/humour.html</a><br>
<div class="im"><br>
Bzr is slower than Subversion in combination with Sourceforge.<br>
( By: <a href="http://dazjorz.com/" target="_blank">http://dazjorz.com/</a> )<br>
<br>
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