[RBS] Personal opinion or fact?

Sun Jan 1 09:36:12 IST 2012

it is NOT A PERSONAL OPINION  to state that a gan has a wall around it, put
up to keep the children from seeing other jewish children
nor is it personal opinion to state that beit shemesh' problems stem from
intolerance
nor is it personal opinion to state that walls between preschools (or
schools) are a form of intolerance

other forms of intolerance, which have made life very unpleasant to many
residents of Beit Shemesh are:
- bullying store ownersto put up "tzniut " signs (with significantthreats,
for more detaisl , ask teh store owners themselves)
- threatenignthe editors fo local advertising bulletins with boycotts if
they print information abotu Yom Haatzmaut and Yom Yerushalaim celebrations
, or if they print photos of girls or even doll faces
- standing outside preschoosl and schools davening that the school
population leave
- knocking on people's doors and 'asking" themto move out of hte
neighbourhood
- throwing stones at children in electric wheelchairs on Shabbat(happens
that two of these children are close friends of ours, so I am not passign
alogn hearsay here)
- throwing stones at cars on Shabbat (as far as I understand, only a Beit
Din can call for Sekila, and onyl under specific conditions)
- sticking up posters that say "Jews hate Zionists"
- putting feces in classrooms
- calling children "prutzot" and "shiktzes"
- newspaper articles celebrating the leader of the goons as Harav Hagaon
Rav Heller (please, before you bring Hadash into your home, read the Hebrew
side.  It is VERY different fromteh Englsih side, and it is the side your
children are more likely to read)

and, yes, it is intolerance to not demand of yoru own rav to get up and
publicly denounce these behaviours, adn put ht eperpetrators in Heirem, as
the implicit message is that it is okay.  You disagree? What would you
expect of yoru rav if you found out that some parents in your shul / kids'
school were seen REGULARLY going into local stores and takign "protection
money" from the owners, with "psukim" on their banners, and articles in
locla papers claiming that halachically they are allowed? If they were then
explainign that all this protectionmoney is goign to Gemahim, so it is
l'sheim shamayim.
 If children were seeing this, you would want the rav to get up and say it
is wrong and assur, no?  You woudl want to help your kids recognize when
someone is misusing Torah and Torah sources.  You would want huge
announcemets that Torah does not say the ends justifies the means.

Are they "true hareidim" or not?  THAT is a question of opinion.
Certainly the "hareidi tzibbur" has "benefitted" from such behaviours in
the past  - it was through such behaviours :
 that construction of the Ma'ar was cancelled ( leaving Beit Shemesh
unattractive to working people and inaccessible to college students), that
the early community of Beitar drove out its Dati-Leumi community, that Beit
Sefer Etrog was removed from its first campus, that the 335 bus cancelled
stops in Modiin and the 497 bus cancelled its stop near Bar Ilan
university, that traffic no longer goes through Rehov Bar Ilan in
Yerushalaim on Shabbat (causign peopel who need ot get to Har Hatzofim
hospital to have to drive more) , etc

And the fact that "Hareidi" violence benefits the Hareidi Tzibbur is that
much more of a reason for REAL Hareidi leaders to get up and say it is
passul.   To day that even if the Hareidi tzibbur would like the Orot
school campus to belong ot Hareidi schools , that this is NOT the way to
achieve that , and that , in fact, as we say to our children, "if you act
like that, we don't want it!!"

I apologize if people find this to be hareidi bashing, but really it is the
opposite.  I am here because i believe that hareidi Jews are part of the
Jewish people with whomwe must live and get along.  But it takes two ,
honest and interested, sides to get along.

On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Leeba (Bell) Rosenthal <
hazlucha at bezeqint.net> wrote:

> I am more disappointed that people continue to refer to them as
>  "charedim",
> when in  fact they are actually nutcases, not true charedim.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rbs-bounces at cs.huji.ac.il [mailto:rbs-bounces at cs.huji.ac.il] On
> Behalf
> Of Susan Reuben
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 1:30 PM
> To: Phil'n'Chanie Rosenfelder; BS_List; rbs lists - huji; Rbs2
> Subject: Re: [RBS] where it all starts, and where it can end
>
> up until now there have been no personal articles written regarding the
> chillul HaShem - on both sides - that is taking place in our community.  I
> don't understand why this letter was accepted by the moderators, the list
> is
>
> not a forum for giving personal opinions or speaking lashan hara.  Please
> can the moderators make sure they this does not become a thread now for
> taking sides on this issue.
>
> Shabbat Shalom
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil'n'Chanie Rosenfelder" <philnchanie at gmail.com>
> To: "BS_List" <list at shemesh.co.il>; "rbs lists - huji" <rbs at cs.huji.ac.il
> >;
> "Rbs2" <RBS at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 11:23 AM
> Subject: [RBS] where it all starts, and where it can end
>
>
> first of all, i want to publicly thank Yehuda Meshi Zahav for his
> article in Hashavua B'Veit Shemesh
>
> second, for those who wonder how it can be that there is violence
> against beit Sefer Orot -  after all , Hareidim are not hateful
> people..
>
> BUT when they build a wall around the gan building, to shield their
> children fromthe neighbouring gan, they are teachign the next
> generation that "other Jews" are to be avoided at all costs, and even
> when we, hareidm, move into a populated neighbourhood, we must shut
> our neighbours out (or stand outside their schools saying tehillim
> that they should leave)
>
> I am deeply sorry to be writing this, but i think that we have to be
> able to take a stand, to demand that the wall be taken down,
> we must remember that Hareidim who move to a city which is not all
> hareidi (or that matter, to a country in which they benefit from
> services provided by non-hareidim) have chosen to be part of a world
> in which there are other Jews, and other people, and those people are
> NOT a plague tobe avoided, BUT RATHER they are neighbours, relatives,
> soldiers and firefighters to be appreciated and respected (and even
> loved , at least Gd seems to think so)!!!
>
> Please, if you believe in HaShem, His Nation and His Torah, stand up
> for Ahdut .  Tear down the walls!!
>
>
>
> It is my tefilla that the lists will not censor this email, and in
> that way again prevent people from hearing other people's feelings and
> needs
>
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