[RBS] Please just consider this...for all our sakes

[RBS] Please just consider this...for all our sakes

Phil'n'Chanie Rosenfelder philnchanie at gmail.com
Mon Jan 2 17:49:02 IST 2012 

yes, Leeba, if the hareidi community would stop accepting the goons as part
of their community, then the police will (probably) take a stronger stand
t\
which is the reason many have asked before, and continue to ask

- that the Rabbanim put these people in Heirem (there are enough
photographs to identify a large number of them)
- that everyone complain to Hadash and other newspapers,
for portraying the goons as "good guys" and calling them such things as
"harav hagaon " (which is the title Hadash uses for one of the chief
bullies - Heller
- that people who consider themselves Hareidi come out very loudly against
such behaviour
- that the community be willing to hear the truth about the bullying and
terrorizing being done, instead of allowing ourselves to believe such
fiction as "the tzniut signs were agreed to by the local businesses",
again, demand that the newspapers stop hiding these things

when the Hareidi majority stands up and says :"we will have no part in
this", rather than stand quietly by, then everyone will realize that these
goons do not represent or work together with the Hareidi tzibbur in any way

On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Leeba (Bell) Rosenthal <
hazlucha at bezeqint.net> wrote:

> For the record, I was not referring Chani as being offensive at all.  I
> was referring to those who respond privately , probably b/c they are too
> embarrassed to voice what they say  publicly.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> Just as the nuts are VERY HORRIBLY wrong and disgraceful to be  doing what
> they are doing in Bet,  it is wrong to create Chilul Hashem.  These lists
> are PUBLIC and when we write the word "charedim"  it is read and
>  REinterpreted by goysih newspapers (and Jewish ones!) and by people all
> over the world  as " orthodox Jews".  Negative feelings are created against
>  ALL religious Jews, in black and white and, yes, even those  in kippot
> srugot.  I heard from someone in the  states that someone said to him,  "eh
> they are  all the same! don’t matter if they wear black coats or those
> knitted things!  They're all crazy!"    WE are creating that attitude , or
> at least feeding it,  by choosing to continue to use words like "charedim"
> instead of what they really are.    I agree with Chani that what is going
> on is beyond sick!   I agree with Dov and others   that a stand must be
> taken, but taken against insanity, NOT against  Jews in black and white.
>   But by  *US, religious Jews*  talking out this way we are only adding
> fuel to a very different  battle,  the battle we as Jews fight every day
> against anti Semitism.  My email was not meant to G-d forbid condone
> anything  going on, I was there one day with the crowds  watching over
> little kids  going  to school at the beginning,   I have voiced my
> dissatisfaction;    but I will not point my finger at anyone and label them
> as in any way religious, let alone charedi.    I do not think the charedi
> community at large have benefitted from this sickness and    I will
> continue to refer to them as nutcases and hope that those  of you who are
> even more passionate then I will follow suit so that  maybe one day even
>  the police will view them as such and really get rid of them from our
> neighborhoods.   As  long as we call  them "charedim" people will argue
> they have a right to be here … and they don’t !    Because they are  not
> charedi,   they are nutcases .  ****
>
> ** **
>
> PS an important piece of information: most charedim  would never consider
> me charedi, would probably spit on me too b/c I have a son in the army ,
>  but I still feel this way.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Ayelet Granick [mailto:ayelet526 at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, January 02, 2012 11:13 AM
> *To:* Phil'n'Chanie Rosenfelder
> *Cc:* hazlucha at bezeqint.net; Dov Lipman; rbs lists - huji; BS_List;
> Shields, Moshe Rabbi; David Morris - Lema'an Achai; Rbs2; ALTOR SHIELDS
> *Subject:* Kol HaKavod to Cahni Rosenfeld****
>
> ** **
>
> Thank you Channi, for clearly expressing what so many people feel. ****
>
> I personally agree with every word you have written lately about the
> current events in R/BS.****
>
> I am glad the moderator of this list chose to give you a stage here. ****
>
> Whoever finds what you wrote offensive in any way shoud think again or
> take a course in reading compreshension.
> Channi, you are a brave woman.  ****
>
> Ayelet Granek****
>
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Phil'n'Chanie Rosenfelder <
> philnchanie at gmail.com> wrote:****
>
> it is NOT A PERSONAL OPINION  to state that a gan has a wall around it,
> put up to keep the children from seeing other jewish children  ****
>
> nor is it personal opinion to state that beit shemesh' problems stem from
> intolerance****
>
> nor is it personal opinion to state that walls between preschools (or
> schools) are a form of intolerance****
>
> ** **
>
> other forms of intolerance, which have made life very unpleasant to many
> residents of Beit Shemesh are:****
>
> - bullying store ownersto put up "tzniut " signs (with significantthreats,
> for more detaisl , ask teh store owners themselves)****
>
> - threatenignthe editors fo local advertising bulletins with boycotts if
> they print information abotu Yom Haatzmaut and Yom Yerushalaim celebrations
> , or if they print photos of girls or even doll faces****
>
> - standing outside preschoosl and schools davening that the school
> population leave****
>
> - knocking on people's doors and 'asking" themto move out of hte
> neighbourhood****
>
> - throwing stones at children in electric wheelchairs on Shabbat(happens
> that two of these children are close friends of ours, so I am not passign
> alogn hearsay here)****
>
> - throwing stones at cars on Shabbat (as far as I understand, only a Beit
> Din can call for Sekila, and onyl under specific conditions)****
>
> - sticking up posters that say "Jews hate Zionists"****
>
> - putting feces in classrooms****
>
> - calling children "prutzot" and "shiktzes"****
>
> - newspaper articles celebrating the leader of the goons as Harav Hagaon
> Rav Heller (please, before you bring Hadash into your home, read the Hebrew
> side.  It is VERY different fromteh Englsih side, and it is the side your
> children are more likely to read)****
>
> ** **
>
> and, yes, it is intolerance to not demand of yoru own rav to get up and
> publicly denounce these behaviours, adn put ht eperpetrators in Heirem, as
> the implicit message is that it is okay.  You disagree? What would you
> expect of yoru rav if you found out that some parents in your shul / kids'
> school were seen REGULARLY going into local stores and takign "protection
> money" from the owners, with "psukim" on their banners, and articles in
> locla papers claiming that halachically they are allowed? If they were then
> explainign that all this protectionmoney is goign to Gemahim, so it is
> l'sheim shamayim.****
>
>  If children were seeing this, you would want the rav to get up and say it
> is wrong and assur, no?  You woudl want to help your kids recognize when
> someone is misusing Torah and Torah sources.  You would want huge
> announcemets that Torah does not say the ends justifies the means.****
>
> ** **
>
> Are they "true hareidim" or not?  THAT is a question of opinion.****
>
> Certainly the "hareidi tzibbur" has "benefitted" from such behaviours in
> the past  - it was through such behaviours :****
>
>  that construction of the Ma'ar was cancelled ( leaving Beit Shemesh
> unattractive to working people and inaccessible to college students), that
> the early community of Beitar drove out its Dati-Leumi community, that Beit
> Sefer Etrog was removed from its first campus, that the 335 bus cancelled
> stops in Modiin and the 497 bus cancelled its stop near Bar Ilan
> university, that traffic no longer goes through Rehov Bar Ilan in
> Yerushalaim on Shabbat (causign peopel who need ot get to Har Hatzofim
> hospital to have to drive more) , etc****
>
> ** **
>
> And the fact that "Hareidi" violence benefits the Hareidi Tzibbur is that
> much more of a reason for REAL Hareidi leaders to get up and say it is
> passul.   To day that even if the Hareidi tzibbur would like the Orot
> school campus to belong ot Hareidi schools , that this is NOT the way to
> achieve that , and that , in fact, as we say to our children, "if you act
> like that, we don't want it!!"****
>
> ** **
>
> I apologize if people find this to be hareidi bashing, but really it is
> the opposite.  I am here because i believe that hareidi Jews are part of
> the Jewish people with whomwe must live and get along.  But it takes two ,
> honest and interested, sides to get along.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Leeba (Bell) Rosenthal <
> hazlucha at bezeqint.net> wrote:****
>
> I am more disappointed that people continue to refer to them as
>  "charedim",
> when in  fact they are actually nutcases, not true charedim.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rbs-bounces at cs.huji.ac.il [mailto:rbs-bounces at cs.huji.ac.il] On
> Behalf
> Of Susan Reuben
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 1:30 PM
> To: Phil'n'Chanie Rosenfelder; BS_List; rbs lists - huji; Rbs2
> Subject: Re: [RBS] where it all starts, and where it can end
>
> up until now there have been no personal articles written regarding the
> chillul HaShem - on both sides - that is taking place in our community.  I
> don't understand why this letter was accepted by the moderators, the list
> is
>
> not a forum for giving personal opinions or speaking lashan hara.  Please
> can the moderators make sure they this does not become a thread now for
> taking sides on this issue.
>
> Shabbat Shalom
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil'n'Chanie Rosenfelder" <philnchanie at gmail.com>
> To: "BS_List" <list at shemesh.co.il>; "rbs lists - huji" <rbs at cs.huji.ac.il
> >;
> "Rbs2" <RBS at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 11:23 AM
> Subject: [RBS] where it all starts, and where it can end
>
>
> first of all, i want to publicly thank Yehuda Meshi Zahav for his
> article in Hashavua B'Veit Shemesh
>
> second, for those who wonder how it can be that there is violence
> against beit Sefer Orot -  after all , Hareidim are not hateful
> people..
>
> BUT when they build a wall around the gan building, to shield their
> children fromthe neighbouring gan, they are teachign the next
> generation that "other Jews" are to be avoided at all costs, and even
> when we, hareidm, move into a populated neighbourhood, we must shut
> our neighbours out (or stand outside their schools saying tehillim
> that they should leave)
>
> I am deeply sorry to be writing this, but i think that we have to be
> able to take a stand, to demand that the wall be taken down,
> we must remember that Hareidim who move to a city which is not all
> hareidi (or that matter, to a country in which they benefit from
> services provided by non-hareidim) have chosen to be part of a world
> in which there are other Jews, and other people, and those people are
> NOT a plague tobe avoided, BUT RATHER they are neighbours, relatives,
> soldiers and firefighters to be appreciated and respected (and even
> loved , at least Gd seems to think so)!!!
>
> Please, if you believe in HaShem, His Nation and His Torah, stand up
> for Ahdut .  Tear down the walls!!
>
>
>
> It is my tefilla that the lists will not censor this email, and in
> that way again prevent people from hearing other people's feelings and
> needs
>
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