From vordoo at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  1 08:17:52 2019
From: vordoo at yahoo.com (vordoo)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 08:17:52 +0300
Subject: OT: Non-Israeli domain name registration.
In-Reply-To: <CABD5YeF4K6i7wUihDLQ4aLQ1BXU8Aj59yuve6PZ77RcYHTGrmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2adf93e8-c902-ebb4-ff86-558988baf96e@yahoo.com>
 <CABD5YeF4K6i7wUihDLQ4aLQ1BXU8Aj59yuve6PZ77RcYHTGrmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <89cbdfa3-255c-2f4e-0f6c-bfb0729821ab@yahoo.com>

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From shlomo.solomon at gmail.com  Thu Aug  1 16:54:53 2019
From: shlomo.solomon at gmail.com (Shlomo Solomon)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 16:54:53 +0300
Subject: OT:    micro to standard USB adapter
Message-ID: <20190801165453.3029b1d7@shlomo1.solomon>

I guess this is only "partially" OT because it concerns connecting a
raspberry PI Zero to a Ubuntu box over USB (USB networking).

This works fine with a standard phone charger cable - Male Micro USB
connects to the PI and Male standard USB connects to the computer.

But since I didn't want the long cable, I thought I could replace it
with an OTG adapter + a Male-Male USB connector. This DOES NOT work -
probably because the 5th pin of the OTG adapter is connected to ground. 

My question: does anyone know where I can find a male micro to
standard female (or male) USB adapter that is NOT wired as OTG?



-- 
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04


From yeh at uda.co.il  Thu Aug  1 17:32:39 2019
From: yeh at uda.co.il (Yehuda Deutsch)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 17:32:39 +0300
Subject: OT: micro to standard USB adapter
In-Reply-To: <20190801165453.3029b1d7@shlomo1.solomon>
References: <20190801165453.3029b1d7@shlomo1.solomon>
Message-ID: <CAAnGLd2k+91bstuytcg3YsRRJxgy=e2KDiqJXFzYtc5BV8wJaQ@mail.gmail.com>

Why not use a 25cm / 50cm charging cable? it work for me to power raspberry
pis before.
Use a good quality cable, not those flat / thin cables, because in the
newer pi versions I had power supply issues (at least that is what it said
on the boot log)

Yehuda
------------------------------
*Yehuda Deutsch | IT Developer*


On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 4:55 PM Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I guess this is only "partially" OT because it concerns connecting a
> raspberry PI Zero to a Ubuntu box over USB (USB networking).
>
> This works fine with a standard phone charger cable - Male Micro USB
> connects to the PI and Male standard USB connects to the computer.
>
> But since I didn't want the long cable, I thought I could replace it
> with an OTG adapter + a Male-Male USB connector. This DOES NOT work -
> probably because the 5th pin of the OTG adapter is connected to ground.
>
> My question: does anyone know where I can find a male micro to
> standard female (or male) USB adapter that is NOT wired as OTG?
>
>
>
> --
> Shlomo Solomon
> http://the-solomons.net
> Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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From shlomo.solomon at gmail.com  Thu Aug  1 18:12:32 2019
From: shlomo.solomon at gmail.com (Shlomo Solomon)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 18:12:32 +0300
Subject: OT: micro to standard USB adapter
In-Reply-To: <CAAnGLd2k+91bstuytcg3YsRRJxgy=e2KDiqJXFzYtc5BV8wJaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190801165453.3029b1d7@shlomo1.solomon>
 <CAAnGLd2k+91bstuytcg3YsRRJxgy=e2KDiqJXFzYtc5BV8wJaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190801181232.4d3a6a52@shlomo1.solomon>

Power is not a problem. The PI Zero needs MUCH less than the regular
PI (about 20% of what a PI 3 needs). 
I just want the cable length to be 0 so 25cm is 25 too much :-)

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 17:32:39 +0300
Yehuda Deutsch <yeh at uda.co.il> wrote:

> Why not use a 25cm / 50cm charging cable? it work for me to power
> raspberry pis before.
> Use a good quality cable, not those flat / thin cables, because in the
> newer pi versions I had power supply issues (at least that is what it
> said on the boot log)
> 
> Yehuda
> ------------------------------
> *Yehuda Deutsch | IT Developer*
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 4:55 PM Shlomo Solomon
> <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I guess this is only "partially" OT because it concerns connecting a
> > raspberry PI Zero to a Ubuntu box over USB (USB networking).
> >
> > This works fine with a standard phone charger cable - Male Micro USB
> > connects to the PI and Male standard USB connects to the computer.
> >
> > But since I didn't want the long cable, I thought I could replace it
> > with an OTG adapter + a Male-Male USB connector. This DOES NOT work
> > - probably because the 5th pin of the OTG adapter is connected to
> > ground.
> >
> > My question: does anyone know where I can find a male micro to
> > standard female (or male) USB adapter that is NOT wired as OTG?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shlomo Solomon
> > http://the-solomons.net
> > Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linux-il mailing list
> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >



-- 
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04


From vordoo at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  2 08:04:56 2019
From: vordoo at yahoo.com (vordoo)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 08:04:56 +0300
Subject: OT: micro to standard USB adapter
In-Reply-To: <20190801165453.3029b1d7@shlomo1.solomon>
References: <20190801165453.3029b1d7@shlomo1.solomon>
Message-ID: <1b630a6b-1cf5-d80f-39d6-f4f1a422408a@yahoo.com>

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From shlomo.solomon at gmail.com  Fri Aug  2 09:10:50 2019
From: shlomo.solomon at gmail.com (Shlomo Solomon)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 09:10:50 +0300
Subject: OT: micro to standard USB adapter
In-Reply-To: <1b630a6b-1cf5-d80f-39d6-f4f1a422408a@yahoo.com>
References: <20190801165453.3029b1d7@shlomo1.solomon>
 <1b630a6b-1cf5-d80f-39d6-f4f1a422408a@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20190802091050.58a34fb2@shlomo1.solomon>

Thanks, but these are all OTG (not good because of the 5th wire) and/or
type-C and/or mini (not standard to micro) and/or have a wire (I'm
looking for an adapter - not a cable).


On Fri, 2 Aug 2019 08:04:56 +0300
vordoo <vordoo at yahoo.com> wrote:

> https://www.amazon.com/micro-standard-usb-adapter/s?k=micro+usb+adapter
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sop=12&_fspt=1&_mPrRngCbx=1&_from=R40&_nkw=micro+usb+adapter&_sacat=0&_fosrp=1
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/1/19 4:54 PM, Shlomo Solomon wrote:
> I guess this is only "partially" OT because it concerns connecting a
> > raspberry PI Zero to a Ubuntu box over USB (USB networking).
> > 
> > This works fine with a standard phone charger cable - Male Micro USB
> > connects to the PI and Male standard USB connects to the computer.
> > 
> > But since I didn't want the long cable, I thought I could replace it
> > with an OTG adapter + a Male-Male USB connector. This DOES NOT work
> > - probably because the 5th pin of the OTG adapter is connected to
> > ground. 
> > 
> > My question: does anyone know where I can find a male micro to
> > standard female (or male) USB adapter that is NOT wired as OTG?
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 


-- 
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04


From vordoo at yahoo.com  Fri Aug  2 10:07:14 2019
From: vordoo at yahoo.com (vordoo)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 10:07:14 +0300
Subject: OT: micro to standard USB adapter
In-Reply-To: <20190802091050.58a34fb2@shlomo1.solomon>
References: <20190801165453.3029b1d7@shlomo1.solomon>
 <1b630a6b-1cf5-d80f-39d6-f4f1a422408a@yahoo.com>
 <20190802091050.58a34fb2@shlomo1.solomon>
Message-ID: <3c96538f-1abe-7f35-bf5a-9a0af59bf36d@yahoo.com>

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From linux-il at didi.bardavid.org  Thu Aug  8 13:26:32 2019
From: linux-il at didi.bardavid.org (Yedidyah Bar David)
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:26:32 +0300
Subject: OT: Non-Israeli domain name registration.
In-Reply-To: <CAGtcZ6upVOT5us505eXvK3AjbdUMvawm9kSMfJWAZ-Oqc=DfQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2adf93e8-c902-ebb4-ff86-558988baf96e@yahoo.com>
 <CABKuJEB4wdphxng7oYauQiu5k=5WDPwrXH9mFYqiU=tGmjo99g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGtcZ6upVOT5us505eXvK3AjbdUMvawm9kSMfJWAZ-Oqc=DfQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGtcZ6tvF9=gSA+2yY+im59jDEx9YXMWQY+wUJP_S-E66sJ_5w@mail.gmail.com>

Last time I had to renew my only (.org) domain I decided to transfer it to
box.co.il, which is also a .il registrar (which I why I knew them). It was
a bit more expensive than the cheapest options abroad, but the ability to
pay in NIS with an Israeli (-only) credit card, and be able to talk with
someone over a phone, in Hebrew, made it, for me. The transfer and renew
was just fine (although did take some time and work, also because I had to
ask the previous registrar to allow transfer but also because they had some
mistakes etc.). Didn't hear from them since then, and do not expect to hear
- the yearly "update your details at icann" emails include links to "
name-services.com", and the last one was also sent From: there. They are a
sub-registrar of enom.com, which IIUC is a rather large registrar that only
has sub- ones, does not work with end customers directly.

Best regards,

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 1:19 PM Yedidyah Bar David <didi at bardavid.org> wrote:

> Last time I had to renew my only (.org) domain I decided to transfer it to
> box.co.il, which is also a .il registrar (which I why I knew them). It
> was a bit more expensive than the cheapest options abroad, but the ability
> to pay in NIS with an Israeli (-only) credit card, and be able to talk with
> someone over a phone, in Hebrew, made it, for me. The transfer and renew
> was just fine (although did take some time and work, also because I had to
> ask the previous registrar to allow transfer but also because they had some
> mistakes etc.). Didn't hear from them since then, and do not expect to hear
> - the yearly "update your details at icann" emails include links to "
> name-services.com", and the last one was also sent From: there. They are
> a sub-registrar of enom.com, which IIUC is a rather large registrar that
> only has sub- ones, does not work with end customers directly.
>
> Best regards,
>
> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 2:02 PM Rabin Yasharzadehe <rabin at rabin.io> wrote:
>
>> I'm using Gandi <https://www.gandi.net/en> and Hover
>> <https://www.hover.com/> and I'm very satisfied by them both.
>>
>> --
>> Rabin
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 13:10, vordoo <vordoo at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Regarding .com, .org, domains. What are the best registrars? Which are
>>> to be avoided (beside Godaddy).
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Linux-il mailing list
>>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Linux-il mailing list
>> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
>> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>>
>
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From shlomo.solomon at gmail.com  Sun Aug 11 09:05:24 2019
From: shlomo.solomon at gmail.com (Shlomo Solomon)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300
Subject: dependency hell     OR    it should not be this hard
Message-ID: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>

Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I solved my
problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam. 

I've been using Linux for over 20 years. I'm pretty sure a novice would
have just quit and either deleted the whole mess or gone back to
Windows.

Fixing broken dependencies should not be that hard!!  

I won't bore you with what happened to me, but after trying GUI
tools and also numerous combinations of commands such as:

sudo apt-get --fix-broken install
sudo apt autoremove
sudo dpkg -P mono-complete
sudo dpkg --remove --force-remove-reinstreq mono-complete
sudo apt-get clean
sudo apt-get autoclean
sudo apt-get -u dist-upgrade
sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" upgrade
sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" -f install
sudo dpkg -P --force-all mono-complete
sudo dpkg --configure -a


I discovered that there were some post removal scripts that were
crashing dpkg and the solution was to manually remove several files
from /var/lib/dpkg/info.

WOW - isn't that a "pretty" way to go.






 

-- 
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04


From vordoo at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 11 10:03:51 2019
From: vordoo at yahoo.com (vordoo)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 10:03:51 +0300
Subject: OT: Non-Israeli domain name registration.
In-Reply-To: <CAGtcZ6tvF9=gSA+2yY+im59jDEx9YXMWQY+wUJP_S-E66sJ_5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2adf93e8-c902-ebb4-ff86-558988baf96e@yahoo.com>
 <CABKuJEB4wdphxng7oYauQiu5k=5WDPwrXH9mFYqiU=tGmjo99g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGtcZ6upVOT5us505eXvK3AjbdUMvawm9kSMfJWAZ-Oqc=DfQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGtcZ6tvF9=gSA+2yY+im59jDEx9YXMWQY+wUJP_S-E66sJ_5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a1f281bf-5aa0-7541-cadf-ebdbcfd88d75@yahoo.com>

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From wickedpheonix at gmail.com  Sun Aug 11 10:42:23 2019
From: wickedpheonix at gmail.com (Ari Becker)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 10:42:23 +0300
Subject: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard
In-Reply-To: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
References: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
Message-ID: <CAK2xwaczO7bzKOmw0j43S_VWGRGCnWNFBsseyRwkdzLRhNpQww@mail.gmail.com>

No, it doesn't have to be that hard. Plugging NixOS:
https://nixos.org/nixos/about.html which solves this issue by making safe
rollbacks as easy as rebooting and choosing the previous immutable system
configuration.

On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 9:06 AM Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I solved my
> problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.
>
> I've been using Linux for over 20 years. I'm pretty sure a novice would
> have just quit and either deleted the whole mess or gone back to
> Windows.
>
> Fixing broken dependencies should not be that hard!!
>
> I won't bore you with what happened to me, but after trying GUI
> tools and also numerous combinations of commands such as:
>
> sudo apt-get --fix-broken install
> sudo apt autoremove
> sudo dpkg -P mono-complete
> sudo dpkg --remove --force-remove-reinstreq mono-complete
> sudo apt-get clean
> sudo apt-get autoclean
> sudo apt-get -u dist-upgrade
> sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" upgrade
> sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" -f install
> sudo dpkg -P --force-all mono-complete
> sudo dpkg --configure -a
>
>
> I discovered that there were some post removal scripts that were
> crashing dpkg and the solution was to manually remove several files
> from /var/lib/dpkg/info.
>
> WOW - isn't that a "pretty" way to go.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Shlomo Solomon
> http://the-solomons.net
> Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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From uri at speedy.net  Sun Aug 11 10:43:04 2019
From: uri at speedy.net (=?UTF-8?B?15DXldeo15k=?=)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 10:43:04 +0300
Subject: OT: Non-Israeli domain name registration.
In-Reply-To: <a1f281bf-5aa0-7541-cadf-ebdbcfd88d75@yahoo.com>
References: <2adf93e8-c902-ebb4-ff86-558988baf96e@yahoo.com>
 <CABKuJEB4wdphxng7oYauQiu5k=5WDPwrXH9mFYqiU=tGmjo99g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGtcZ6upVOT5us505eXvK3AjbdUMvawm9kSMfJWAZ-Oqc=DfQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGtcZ6tvF9=gSA+2yY+im59jDEx9YXMWQY+wUJP_S-E66sJ_5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a1f281bf-5aa0-7541-cadf-ebdbcfd88d75@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABD5YeEXE=AysF1+=sOdTvFkRpmtfzOpGqy1bjWPfKnrHcW_+Q@mail.gmail.com>

There is less competition and less money in the .il market (in total, not
per domain) therefore prices are higher and service quality is lower. I
think there are hundreds of .com etc. registrars and only about 10 .il
registrars. If you need the .il I'm currently using www.box.co.il, if not I
would recommend an international domain name. There are lots of extensions
but the most popular are com/net/org. I would recommend having at least one
of .com/.org version of your domain name, depending if you are for profit
or non-profit.

????
uri at speedy.net


On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 10:04 AM vordoo <vordoo at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Thanks for your input!
>
>
> I do not really care for Hebrew or NIS payments, but do for the service &
> bottom line. As long as the service is good (English and/or Hebrew, via
> email, web-ticket, phone or fax :-) I could care less. Most impotent is
> avoiding those interfaces that flash & up-sell more then serve the point
> you originally came to use them.
>
>
> Sadly, it looks like with an IL-registrar you only get to pay more & get
> the same or less service wise. Really hope someone can debunk me on that.
>
>
>
> On 8/8/19 1:26 PM, Yedidyah Bar David wrote:
>
> Last time I had to renew my only (.org) domain I decided to transfer it to
> box.co.il, which is also a .il registrar (which I why I knew them). It
> was a bit more expensive than the cheapest options abroad, but the ability
> to pay in NIS with an Israeli (-only) credit card, and be able to talk with
> someone over a phone, in Hebrew, made it, for me. The transfer and renew
> was just fine (although did take some time and work, also because I had to
> ask the previous registrar to allow transfer but also because they had some
> mistakes etc.). Didn't hear from them since then, and do not expect to hear
> - the yearly "update your details at icann" emails include links to "
> name-services.com", and the last one was also sent From: there. They are
> a sub-registrar of enom.com, which IIUC is a rather large registrar that
> only has sub- ones, does not work with end customers directly.
>
> Best regards,
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
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From shlomo.solomon at gmail.com  Sun Aug 11 11:01:00 2019
From: shlomo.solomon at gmail.com (Shlomo Solomon)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 11:01:00 +0300
Subject: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard
In-Reply-To: <CAK2xwaczO7bzKOmw0j43S_VWGRGCnWNFBsseyRwkdzLRhNpQww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
 <CAK2xwaczO7bzKOmw0j43S_VWGRGCnWNFBsseyRwkdzLRhNpQww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190811110100.23d0753d@shlomo1.solomon>

Thanks.
I'm not familair with nixos and I certainly don't want to start a
discussion of which distro is better, but I will comment:

1 - IF this works as stated on the nixos site, I hope it will spread to
other distros

2 - changing distros because of a problem like I had is really overkill

3 - I don't really thing this would work in the situation I had
(although as I said - I'm not familiar with nixos). It's true that I
did not give details earlier, but I can add that it "seems" that
something went wrong when I installed a package about 2 months ago, but
everything worked OK until an update to that package (today) failed and
left the system unstable. So I don't think going back to a breakpoint
from months ago (if it were even possible) would b a viable solution
since it that time I'm made MANY changes to the system - including
installing other packages. Fixing a specific broken package or
dependency should be a trivial thing. 



On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 10:42:23 +0300
Ari Becker <wickedpheonix at gmail.com> wrote:

> No, it doesn't have to be that hard. Plugging NixOS:
> https://nixos.org/nixos/about.html which solves this issue by making
> safe rollbacks as easy as rebooting and choosing the previous
> immutable system configuration.
> 
> On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 9:06 AM Shlomo Solomon
> <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I
> > solved my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.
> >
> > I've been using Linux for over 20 years. I'm pretty sure a novice
> > would have just quit and either deleted the whole mess or gone back
> > to Windows.
> >
> > Fixing broken dependencies should not be that hard!!
> >
> > I won't bore you with what happened to me, but after trying GUI
> > tools and also numerous combinations of commands such as:
> >
> > sudo apt-get --fix-broken install
> > sudo apt autoremove
> > sudo dpkg -P mono-complete
> > sudo dpkg --remove --force-remove-reinstreq mono-complete
> > sudo apt-get clean
> > sudo apt-get autoclean
> > sudo apt-get -u dist-upgrade
> > sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" upgrade
> > sudo apt-get -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-overwrite" -f install
> > sudo dpkg -P --force-all mono-complete
> > sudo dpkg --configure -a
> >
> >
> > I discovered that there were some post removal scripts that were
> > crashing dpkg and the solution was to manually remove several files
> > from /var/lib/dpkg/info.
> >
> > WOW - isn't that a "pretty" way to go.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shlomo Solomon
> > http://the-solomons.net
> > Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linux-il mailing list
> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >



-- 
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04


From tzafrir at cohens.org.il  Sun Aug 11 11:11:52 2019
From: tzafrir at cohens.org.il (Tzafrir Cohen)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 11:11:52 +0300
Subject: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard
In-Reply-To: <CAK2xwaczO7bzKOmw0j43S_VWGRGCnWNFBsseyRwkdzLRhNpQww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
 <CAK2xwaczO7bzKOmw0j43S_VWGRGCnWNFBsseyRwkdzLRhNpQww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <79b54d35-6270-278e-d83e-77a9223e500d@cohens.org.il>

On 11/08/2019 4:42, Ari Becker wrote:
> No, it doesn't have to be that hard. Plugging NixOS:
> https://nixos.org/nixos/about.html which solves this issue by making
> safe rollbacks as easy as rebooting and choosing the previous immutable
> system configuration.

Nixos and the similar Guix indeed disallow any scripts at package install.

>From some anecdotial evidence, at least in some cases this translatest
to more manual changes required by the users in their configuration.

-- Tzafrir


From shachar at shemesh.biz  Sun Aug 11 11:43:20 2019
From: shachar at shemesh.biz (Shachar Shemesh)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 11:43:20 +0300
Subject: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard
In-Reply-To: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
References: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
Message-ID: <e69671aa-43f7-9855-1913-ce97e0a863db@shemesh.biz>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/pipermail/linux-il/attachments/20190811/d65cc9b1/attachment.html>

From slitt at troubleshooters.com  Mon Aug 12 04:17:39 2019
From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 21:17:39 -0400
Subject: dependency hell     OR    it should not be this hard
In-Reply-To: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
References: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
Message-ID: <20190811211739.7c669fee@mydesk.domain.cxm>

On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300
Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com> wrote:

> Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I solved
> my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam. 

[snip successful attempts using a ~10 step apt/dpkg witch's brew]

I feel your pain. Probably we all do.

And it's likely the better people to let off steam at would be:

1) The maintainers of your distro

2) The maintainers of your "Desktop Environment", if any

3) The authors of the software concerned


DISTRO:

Your complaint isn't very detailed, but the fact that you needed apt to
fix it suggests you're using a Debian derived distro. Most Debian
extension distros, such as Ubuntu, Mint and Knoppix, add hypercomplexity
in order to make them more magically "we do it all for you" and "user
friendly", or just to make things look pretty.

Debian itself, once a simplistic distro, has been slowly complexifying
itself, first by defaulting to selecting of that ball of
confusion Gnome3, which itself has been complexifying at a remarkable
rate, and then by pledging allegiance to systemd: The ultimate ball of
confusion.

About the only apt packaged distro I could recommend today, from a
dependency-sanity point of view, would be Devuan, which rejected
both Gnome3 and systemd.

I find it amusing that Debian's solution to substituting a non-systemd
init system involves a many-step raindance where you pin this package
and hold back that package.

Of course, Redhat and Redhat-derived distros are worse.

Tell your distro maintainers to quit making package recommends into
hard requirements, and to find better solutions than secret apt meetings
with secret dpkg handshakes, or else consider not packaging it at all.
There are usually substitutes and equivalents.


DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS:

Desktop environments, which bind a window manager and a bunch of
applications together, including all sorts of interdependencies and
promiscuous communications inside and outside of dbus, were obviously a
bad idea from the beginning, for people who want to control their
computers rather than the other way around.

If you use a desktop environment, write to them and tell them to reduce
promiscuous communication and dependencies. They'll laugh at you, of
course: Their purpose on this earth is to create obscenely
interdependent black boxes.

You can avoid a lot of this by going back to a window manager and
selecting your applications a-la-carte, trying mightily not to include
desktop environment apps. If enough people were to do this (not very
likely, most people are wedded to their "we do it all for you"
environments), the "desktop environments" might catch on and put more
of a priority on modularity and thin interfaces (or no interfaces where
not needed).

I kicked KDE and every KDE app and library off my computer in 2012-2013,
and lived to tell about it. I've never used Gnome3, and slowly but
surely I've been kicking its apps and libraries off my computer. Now I
boss my computer around, not the other way around.


THE SOFTWARE AUTHORS:

True story. When using Python writing a piece of free software intended
to be used by others, I needed one minor but not obvious how to code
functionality. So I asked how to code it on the Python IRC channel. Not
one answer, but three or four people told me to use some ginormous
library, itself having lots of dependencies, that was not part of the
standard Python distribution.

I explained that I didn't need all that stuff, I just needed this one
functionality. I didn't want my users to have to integrate this library
into their systems. "No problem", one of the IRC denizens proclaimed,
"that's what the Python <whatever> is for: You can build your own Python
interpreter for your one application, and ship the interpreter along
with the app". Look at your computer's clock: This is not an April Fools
joke, this happened.

If course I said "no", and then the real abuse happened, with the usual
"don't reinvent the wheel" and "scared to learn new things" and a new
creative diss: "Real programmers try new packages just to get familiar
with them, it's a real opportunity!"

Unfortunately, these guys weren't unusual. Way too many programmers, in
the name of avoiding reinventing the wheel, integrate somebody else's
wheel, when all they needed was an easily available single spoke. You
know who suffers? The distro maintainers and the users.

All too many developers put absolutely zero priority on simplicity. The
slightest improvement in "pretty", or the slightest "improvement" to
keep the user from having to use a text editor, is perfect
justification to bring in a gargantuan software library with poorly
documented API, lots of child dependencies, grandchild dependencies,
and who knows how far down the tree it goes. And at any given time,
at least one dependency of that software dependency tree gets buggy or
goes unmaintained or sets a dependency on something so modern it won't
work with your distro, and you get to use a 10 step apt/dpkg
choreography.

Tell the software authors your objections to gratuitous dependency
inclusions, as well as unnecessary and unhelpful communications with
barely related software. Tell them you choose software to work and keep
on working, not to be pretty or spare you from using an editor. 

And then do what you told them: When evaluating free software
alternatives, significantly downvote those with too many, or
unnecessary, dependencies. And if the simpler software lacks a feature
you need, you can usually kludge it together with a couple shellscripts
and maybe some Python/Perl/Ruby/Lua/awk/grep/sed. We all hate to
kludge, but I think the ultimate kludge is some conceited developer
requiring 100K lines of imported code to give a couple features he could
have done in 100 lines of self-written code, if he'd bothered.

I copied the GoLUG mailing list because it's my home-town LUG, and the
Devuan mailing list because they're the one direct Debian fork
that eschews unnecessary dependencies and intermodular communications.
Notice that some forks and extensions of Devuan also keep complexity to
a minimum.

SteveT


From shlomo.solomon at gmail.com  Mon Aug 12 08:17:54 2019
From: shlomo.solomon at gmail.com (Shlomo Solomon)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 08:17:54 +0300
Subject: dependency hell     OR    it should not be this hard
In-Reply-To: <20190811211739.7c669fee@mydesk.domain.cxm>
References: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
 <20190811211739.7c669fee@mydesk.domain.cxm>
Message-ID: <20190812081754.49d79d39@shlomo1.solomon>

Thanks for your VERY detailed reply. Some of it was "over my head", but
relevant and true - although I personally like and use KDE despite it
being quite bloated for many years now. 

As an aside - I got rid of KMail, Akonadi and all their "friends" years
ago. It's hard to believe that an email program has about 80
dependencies and "suggests" another 20 packages!!! 

As I wrote, I intentionally did not include too many details about the
problem since I was not really looking for a solution.

The short version - this seemed to be caused by a broken dependency and
neither apt-get or dpkg were able to solve this until I manually
deleted a few post-install scripts. So the "blame" should probably fall
on the way apt-get and dpkg handle dependencies and/or such scripts,
and not so much on the Kubuntu maintainers. 

Although I did save the relevant apt and dpkg logs, I don't think
that contacting the Kubuntu maintainers will help because they will
probably "blame" the software developers who packaged the monodevelop
IDE (and provided there own PPA) - which never worked for me in the
first place so I probably should have uninstalled it months ago :-).  



On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 21:17:39 -0400
Steve Litt <slitt at troubleshooters.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300
> Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I
> > solved my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.   
> 
> [snip successful attempts using a ~10 step apt/dpkg witch's brew]
> 
> I feel your pain. Probably we all do.
> 
> And it's likely the better people to let off steam at would be:
> 
> 1) The maintainers of your distro
> 
> 2) The maintainers of your "Desktop Environment", if any
> 
> 3) The authors of the software concerned
> 
> 
> DISTRO:
> 
> Your complaint isn't very detailed, but the fact that you needed apt
> to fix it suggests you're using a Debian derived distro. Most Debian
> extension distros, such as Ubuntu, Mint and Knoppix, add
> hypercomplexity in order to make them more magically "we do it all
> for you" and "user friendly", or just to make things look pretty.
> 
> Debian itself, once a simplistic distro, has been slowly complexifying
> itself, first by defaulting to selecting of that ball of
> confusion Gnome3, which itself has been complexifying at a remarkable
> rate, and then by pledging allegiance to systemd: The ultimate ball of
> confusion.
> 
> About the only apt packaged distro I could recommend today, from a
> dependency-sanity point of view, would be Devuan, which rejected
> both Gnome3 and systemd.
> 
> I find it amusing that Debian's solution to substituting a non-systemd
> init system involves a many-step raindance where you pin this package
> and hold back that package.
> 
> Of course, Redhat and Redhat-derived distros are worse.
> 
> Tell your distro maintainers to quit making package recommends into
> hard requirements, and to find better solutions than secret apt
> meetings with secret dpkg handshakes, or else consider not packaging
> it at all. There are usually substitutes and equivalents.
> 
> 
> DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS:
> 
> Desktop environments, which bind a window manager and a bunch of
> applications together, including all sorts of interdependencies and
> promiscuous communications inside and outside of dbus, were obviously
> a bad idea from the beginning, for people who want to control their
> computers rather than the other way around.
> 
> If you use a desktop environment, write to them and tell them to
> reduce promiscuous communication and dependencies. They'll laugh at
> you, of course: Their purpose on this earth is to create obscenely
> interdependent black boxes.
> 
> You can avoid a lot of this by going back to a window manager and
> selecting your applications a-la-carte, trying mightily not to include
> desktop environment apps. If enough people were to do this (not very
> likely, most people are wedded to their "we do it all for you"
> environments), the "desktop environments" might catch on and put more
> of a priority on modularity and thin interfaces (or no interfaces
> where not needed).
> 
> I kicked KDE and every KDE app and library off my computer in
> 2012-2013, and lived to tell about it. I've never used Gnome3, and
> slowly but surely I've been kicking its apps and libraries off my
> computer. Now I boss my computer around, not the other way around.
> 
> 
> THE SOFTWARE AUTHORS:
> 
> True story. When using Python writing a piece of free software
> intended to be used by others, I needed one minor but not obvious how
> to code functionality. So I asked how to code it on the Python IRC
> channel. Not one answer, but three or four people told me to use some
> ginormous library, itself having lots of dependencies, that was not
> part of the standard Python distribution.
> 
> I explained that I didn't need all that stuff, I just needed this one
> functionality. I didn't want my users to have to integrate this
> library into their systems. "No problem", one of the IRC denizens
> proclaimed, "that's what the Python <whatever> is for: You can build
> your own Python interpreter for your one application, and ship the
> interpreter along with the app". Look at your computer's clock: This
> is not an April Fools joke, this happened.
> 
> If course I said "no", and then the real abuse happened, with the
> usual "don't reinvent the wheel" and "scared to learn new things" and
> a new creative diss: "Real programmers try new packages just to get
> familiar with them, it's a real opportunity!"
> 
> Unfortunately, these guys weren't unusual. Way too many programmers,
> in the name of avoiding reinventing the wheel, integrate somebody
> else's wheel, when all they needed was an easily available single
> spoke. You know who suffers? The distro maintainers and the users.
> 
> All too many developers put absolutely zero priority on simplicity.
> The slightest improvement in "pretty", or the slightest "improvement"
> to keep the user from having to use a text editor, is perfect
> justification to bring in a gargantuan software library with poorly
> documented API, lots of child dependencies, grandchild dependencies,
> and who knows how far down the tree it goes. And at any given time,
> at least one dependency of that software dependency tree gets buggy or
> goes unmaintained or sets a dependency on something so modern it won't
> work with your distro, and you get to use a 10 step apt/dpkg
> choreography.
> 
> Tell the software authors your objections to gratuitous dependency
> inclusions, as well as unnecessary and unhelpful communications with
> barely related software. Tell them you choose software to work and
> keep on working, not to be pretty or spare you from using an editor. 
> 
> And then do what you told them: When evaluating free software
> alternatives, significantly downvote those with too many, or
> unnecessary, dependencies. And if the simpler software lacks a feature
> you need, you can usually kludge it together with a couple
> shellscripts and maybe some Python/Perl/Ruby/Lua/awk/grep/sed. We all
> hate to kludge, but I think the ultimate kludge is some conceited
> developer requiring 100K lines of imported code to give a couple
> features he could have done in 100 lines of self-written code, if
> he'd bothered.
> 
> I copied the GoLUG mailing list because it's my home-town LUG, and the
> Devuan mailing list because they're the one direct Debian fork
> that eschews unnecessary dependencies and intermodular communications.
> Notice that some forks and extensions of Devuan also keep complexity
> to a minimum.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il



-- 
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04


From jhoyland at gmail.com  Mon Aug 12 09:45:26 2019
From: jhoyland at gmail.com (Jeremy Hoyland)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:45:26 +0300
Subject: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard
In-Reply-To: <20190812081754.49d79d39@shlomo1.solomon>
References: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
 <20190811211739.7c669fee@mydesk.domain.cxm>
 <20190812081754.49d79d39@shlomo1.solomon>
Message-ID: <CAGZ9y3c+4Kjz441NX-5kiOyJxUR2qHhch1ysyLO5t_k1-a6DCA@mail.gmail.com>

Just to comment on your original post.
Don't think for one moment that things are any better in Windows.
The difference with APT issues is that there *is* something you can do
about it, and ultimately, the problem is resolvable by you.
In Windows things look a lot prettier, but I have often had an installer
fail with no reason given and then automatically roll-back with no recourse.
The solutions there often required manual editing of the registry.
I prefer APT any day.

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 08:18, Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thanks for your VERY detailed reply. Some of it was "over my head", but
> relevant and true - although I personally like and use KDE despite it
> being quite bloated for many years now.
>
> As an aside - I got rid of KMail, Akonadi and all their "friends" years
> ago. It's hard to believe that an email program has about 80
> dependencies and "suggests" another 20 packages!!!
>
> As I wrote, I intentionally did not include too many details about the
> problem since I was not really looking for a solution.
>
> The short version - this seemed to be caused by a broken dependency and
> neither apt-get or dpkg were able to solve this until I manually
> deleted a few post-install scripts. So the "blame" should probably fall
> on the way apt-get and dpkg handle dependencies and/or such scripts,
> and not so much on the Kubuntu maintainers.
>
> Although I did save the relevant apt and dpkg logs, I don't think
> that contacting the Kubuntu maintainers will help because they will
> probably "blame" the software developers who packaged the monodevelop
> IDE (and provided there own PPA) - which never worked for me in the
> first place so I probably should have uninstalled it months ago :-).
>
>
>
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 21:17:39 -0400
> Steve Litt <slitt at troubleshooters.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300
> > Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I
> > > solved my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.
> >
> > [snip successful attempts using a ~10 step apt/dpkg witch's brew]
> >
> > I feel your pain. Probably we all do.
> >
> > And it's likely the better people to let off steam at would be:
> >
> > 1) The maintainers of your distro
> >
> > 2) The maintainers of your "Desktop Environment", if any
> >
> > 3) The authors of the software concerned
> >
> >
> > DISTRO:
> >
> > Your complaint isn't very detailed, but the fact that you needed apt
> > to fix it suggests you're using a Debian derived distro. Most Debian
> > extension distros, such as Ubuntu, Mint and Knoppix, add
> > hypercomplexity in order to make them more magically "we do it all
> > for you" and "user friendly", or just to make things look pretty.
> >
> > Debian itself, once a simplistic distro, has been slowly complexifying
> > itself, first by defaulting to selecting of that ball of
> > confusion Gnome3, which itself has been complexifying at a remarkable
> > rate, and then by pledging allegiance to systemd: The ultimate ball of
> > confusion.
> >
> > About the only apt packaged distro I could recommend today, from a
> > dependency-sanity point of view, would be Devuan, which rejected
> > both Gnome3 and systemd.
> >
> > I find it amusing that Debian's solution to substituting a non-systemd
> > init system involves a many-step raindance where you pin this package
> > and hold back that package.
> >
> > Of course, Redhat and Redhat-derived distros are worse.
> >
> > Tell your distro maintainers to quit making package recommends into
> > hard requirements, and to find better solutions than secret apt
> > meetings with secret dpkg handshakes, or else consider not packaging
> > it at all. There are usually substitutes and equivalents.
> >
> >
> > DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS:
> >
> > Desktop environments, which bind a window manager and a bunch of
> > applications together, including all sorts of interdependencies and
> > promiscuous communications inside and outside of dbus, were obviously
> > a bad idea from the beginning, for people who want to control their
> > computers rather than the other way around.
> >
> > If you use a desktop environment, write to them and tell them to
> > reduce promiscuous communication and dependencies. They'll laugh at
> > you, of course: Their purpose on this earth is to create obscenely
> > interdependent black boxes.
> >
> > You can avoid a lot of this by going back to a window manager and
> > selecting your applications a-la-carte, trying mightily not to include
> > desktop environment apps. If enough people were to do this (not very
> > likely, most people are wedded to their "we do it all for you"
> > environments), the "desktop environments" might catch on and put more
> > of a priority on modularity and thin interfaces (or no interfaces
> > where not needed).
> >
> > I kicked KDE and every KDE app and library off my computer in
> > 2012-2013, and lived to tell about it. I've never used Gnome3, and
> > slowly but surely I've been kicking its apps and libraries off my
> > computer. Now I boss my computer around, not the other way around.
> >
> >
> > THE SOFTWARE AUTHORS:
> >
> > True story. When using Python writing a piece of free software
> > intended to be used by others, I needed one minor but not obvious how
> > to code functionality. So I asked how to code it on the Python IRC
> > channel. Not one answer, but three or four people told me to use some
> > ginormous library, itself having lots of dependencies, that was not
> > part of the standard Python distribution.
> >
> > I explained that I didn't need all that stuff, I just needed this one
> > functionality. I didn't want my users to have to integrate this
> > library into their systems. "No problem", one of the IRC denizens
> > proclaimed, "that's what the Python <whatever> is for: You can build
> > your own Python interpreter for your one application, and ship the
> > interpreter along with the app". Look at your computer's clock: This
> > is not an April Fools joke, this happened.
> >
> > If course I said "no", and then the real abuse happened, with the
> > usual "don't reinvent the wheel" and "scared to learn new things" and
> > a new creative diss: "Real programmers try new packages just to get
> > familiar with them, it's a real opportunity!"
> >
> > Unfortunately, these guys weren't unusual. Way too many programmers,
> > in the name of avoiding reinventing the wheel, integrate somebody
> > else's wheel, when all they needed was an easily available single
> > spoke. You know who suffers? The distro maintainers and the users.
> >
> > All too many developers put absolutely zero priority on simplicity.
> > The slightest improvement in "pretty", or the slightest "improvement"
> > to keep the user from having to use a text editor, is perfect
> > justification to bring in a gargantuan software library with poorly
> > documented API, lots of child dependencies, grandchild dependencies,
> > and who knows how far down the tree it goes. And at any given time,
> > at least one dependency of that software dependency tree gets buggy or
> > goes unmaintained or sets a dependency on something so modern it won't
> > work with your distro, and you get to use a 10 step apt/dpkg
> > choreography.
> >
> > Tell the software authors your objections to gratuitous dependency
> > inclusions, as well as unnecessary and unhelpful communications with
> > barely related software. Tell them you choose software to work and
> > keep on working, not to be pretty or spare you from using an editor.
> >
> > And then do what you told them: When evaluating free software
> > alternatives, significantly downvote those with too many, or
> > unnecessary, dependencies. And if the simpler software lacks a feature
> > you need, you can usually kludge it together with a couple
> > shellscripts and maybe some Python/Perl/Ruby/Lua/awk/grep/sed. We all
> > hate to kludge, but I think the ultimate kludge is some conceited
> > developer requiring 100K lines of imported code to give a couple
> > features he could have done in 100 lines of self-written code, if
> > he'd bothered.
> >
> > I copied the GoLUG mailing list because it's my home-town LUG, and the
> > Devuan mailing list because they're the one direct Debian fork
> > that eschews unnecessary dependencies and intermodular communications.
> > Notice that some forks and extensions of Devuan also keep complexity
> > to a minimum.
> >
> > SteveT
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linux-il mailing list
> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
>
> --
> Shlomo Solomon
> http://the-solomons.net
> Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>


-- 
--
Jeremy Hoyland
jhoyland at gmail.com
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From shlomo.solomon at gmail.com  Mon Aug 12 09:53:08 2019
From: shlomo.solomon at gmail.com (Shlomo Solomon)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:53:08 +0300
Subject: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard
In-Reply-To: <CAGZ9y3c+4Kjz441NX-5kiOyJxUR2qHhch1ysyLO5t_k1-a6DCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
 <20190811211739.7c669fee@mydesk.domain.cxm>
 <20190812081754.49d79d39@shlomo1.solomon>
 <CAGZ9y3c+4Kjz441NX-5kiOyJxUR2qHhch1ysyLO5t_k1-a6DCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190812095308.160b71db@shlomo1.solomon>

After more than 20 years using Linux, I have ABSOLUTELY no thoughts
about moving to Windows. My point was that a new user might be daunted
by dependency hell. Whether we like it or not, Windows is the de-facto
OS and if we want to see people moving to Linux, it's got to be better.


 

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:45:26 +0300
Jeremy Hoyland <jhoyland at gmail.com> wrote:

> Just to comment on your original post.
> Don't think for one moment that things are any better in Windows.
> The difference with APT issues is that there *is* something you can do
> about it, and ultimately, the problem is resolvable by you.
> In Windows things look a lot prettier, but I have often had an
> installer fail with no reason given and then automatically roll-back
> with no recourse. The solutions there often required manual editing
> of the registry. I prefer APT any day.
> 
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 08:18, Shlomo Solomon
> <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for your VERY detailed reply. Some of it was "over my head",
> > but relevant and true - although I personally like and use KDE
> > despite it being quite bloated for many years now.
> >
> > As an aside - I got rid of KMail, Akonadi and all their "friends"
> > years ago. It's hard to believe that an email program has about 80
> > dependencies and "suggests" another 20 packages!!!
> >
> > As I wrote, I intentionally did not include too many details about
> > the problem since I was not really looking for a solution.
> >
> > The short version - this seemed to be caused by a broken dependency
> > and neither apt-get or dpkg were able to solve this until I manually
> > deleted a few post-install scripts. So the "blame" should probably
> > fall on the way apt-get and dpkg handle dependencies and/or such
> > scripts, and not so much on the Kubuntu maintainers.
> >
> > Although I did save the relevant apt and dpkg logs, I don't think
> > that contacting the Kubuntu maintainers will help because they will
> > probably "blame" the software developers who packaged the
> > monodevelop IDE (and provided there own PPA) - which never worked
> > for me in the first place so I probably should have uninstalled it
> > months ago :-).
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 21:17:39 -0400
> > Steve Litt <slitt at troubleshooters.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300
> > > Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I
> > > > solved my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.
> > >
> > > [snip successful attempts using a ~10 step apt/dpkg witch's brew]
> > >
> > > I feel your pain. Probably we all do.
> > >
> > > And it's likely the better people to let off steam at would be:
> > >
> > > 1) The maintainers of your distro
> > >
> > > 2) The maintainers of your "Desktop Environment", if any
> > >
> > > 3) The authors of the software concerned
> > >
> > >
> > > DISTRO:
> > >
> > > Your complaint isn't very detailed, but the fact that you needed
> > > apt to fix it suggests you're using a Debian derived distro. Most
> > > Debian extension distros, such as Ubuntu, Mint and Knoppix, add
> > > hypercomplexity in order to make them more magically "we do it all
> > > for you" and "user friendly", or just to make things look pretty.
> > >
> > > Debian itself, once a simplistic distro, has been slowly
> > > complexifying itself, first by defaulting to selecting of that
> > > ball of confusion Gnome3, which itself has been complexifying at
> > > a remarkable rate, and then by pledging allegiance to systemd:
> > > The ultimate ball of confusion.
> > >
> > > About the only apt packaged distro I could recommend today, from a
> > > dependency-sanity point of view, would be Devuan, which rejected
> > > both Gnome3 and systemd.
> > >
> > > I find it amusing that Debian's solution to substituting a
> > > non-systemd init system involves a many-step raindance where you
> > > pin this package and hold back that package.
> > >
> > > Of course, Redhat and Redhat-derived distros are worse.
> > >
> > > Tell your distro maintainers to quit making package recommends
> > > into hard requirements, and to find better solutions than secret
> > > apt meetings with secret dpkg handshakes, or else consider not
> > > packaging it at all. There are usually substitutes and
> > > equivalents.
> > >
> > >
> > > DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS:
> > >
> > > Desktop environments, which bind a window manager and a bunch of
> > > applications together, including all sorts of interdependencies
> > > and promiscuous communications inside and outside of dbus, were
> > > obviously a bad idea from the beginning, for people who want to
> > > control their computers rather than the other way around.
> > >
> > > If you use a desktop environment, write to them and tell them to
> > > reduce promiscuous communication and dependencies. They'll laugh
> > > at you, of course: Their purpose on this earth is to create
> > > obscenely interdependent black boxes.
> > >
> > > You can avoid a lot of this by going back to a window manager and
> > > selecting your applications a-la-carte, trying mightily not to
> > > include desktop environment apps. If enough people were to do
> > > this (not very likely, most people are wedded to their "we do it
> > > all for you" environments), the "desktop environments" might
> > > catch on and put more of a priority on modularity and thin
> > > interfaces (or no interfaces where not needed).
> > >
> > > I kicked KDE and every KDE app and library off my computer in
> > > 2012-2013, and lived to tell about it. I've never used Gnome3, and
> > > slowly but surely I've been kicking its apps and libraries off my
> > > computer. Now I boss my computer around, not the other way around.
> > >
> > >
> > > THE SOFTWARE AUTHORS:
> > >
> > > True story. When using Python writing a piece of free software
> > > intended to be used by others, I needed one minor but not obvious
> > > how to code functionality. So I asked how to code it on the
> > > Python IRC channel. Not one answer, but three or four people told
> > > me to use some ginormous library, itself having lots of
> > > dependencies, that was not part of the standard Python
> > > distribution.
> > >
> > > I explained that I didn't need all that stuff, I just needed this
> > > one functionality. I didn't want my users to have to integrate
> > > this library into their systems. "No problem", one of the IRC
> > > denizens proclaimed, "that's what the Python <whatever> is for:
> > > You can build your own Python interpreter for your one
> > > application, and ship the interpreter along with the app". Look
> > > at your computer's clock: This is not an April Fools joke, this
> > > happened.
> > >
> > > If course I said "no", and then the real abuse happened, with the
> > > usual "don't reinvent the wheel" and "scared to learn new things"
> > > and a new creative diss: "Real programmers try new packages just
> > > to get familiar with them, it's a real opportunity!"
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, these guys weren't unusual. Way too many
> > > programmers, in the name of avoiding reinventing the wheel,
> > > integrate somebody else's wheel, when all they needed was an
> > > easily available single spoke. You know who suffers? The distro
> > > maintainers and the users.
> > >
> > > All too many developers put absolutely zero priority on
> > > simplicity. The slightest improvement in "pretty", or the
> > > slightest "improvement" to keep the user from having to use a
> > > text editor, is perfect justification to bring in a gargantuan
> > > software library with poorly documented API, lots of child
> > > dependencies, grandchild dependencies, and who knows how far down
> > > the tree it goes. And at any given time, at least one dependency
> > > of that software dependency tree gets buggy or goes unmaintained
> > > or sets a dependency on something so modern it won't work with
> > > your distro, and you get to use a 10 step apt/dpkg choreography.
> > >
> > > Tell the software authors your objections to gratuitous dependency
> > > inclusions, as well as unnecessary and unhelpful communications
> > > with barely related software. Tell them you choose software to
> > > work and keep on working, not to be pretty or spare you from
> > > using an editor.
> > >
> > > And then do what you told them: When evaluating free software
> > > alternatives, significantly downvote those with too many, or
> > > unnecessary, dependencies. And if the simpler software lacks a
> > > feature you need, you can usually kludge it together with a couple
> > > shellscripts and maybe some Python/Perl/Ruby/Lua/awk/grep/sed. We
> > > all hate to kludge, but I think the ultimate kludge is some
> > > conceited developer requiring 100K lines of imported code to give
> > > a couple features he could have done in 100 lines of self-written
> > > code, if he'd bothered.
> > >
> > > I copied the GoLUG mailing list because it's my home-town LUG,
> > > and the Devuan mailing list because they're the one direct Debian
> > > fork that eschews unnecessary dependencies and intermodular
> > > communications. Notice that some forks and extensions of Devuan
> > > also keep complexity to a minimum.
> > >
> > > SteveT
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Linux-il mailing list
> > > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shlomo Solomon
> > http://the-solomons.net
> > Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linux-il mailing list
> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> >
> 
> 



-- 
Shlomo Solomon
http://the-solomons.net
Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04


From guy.choo.keren at gmail.com  Mon Aug 12 09:54:50 2019
From: guy.choo.keren at gmail.com (guy keren)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:54:50 +0300
Subject: dependency hell OR it should not be this hard
In-Reply-To: <CAGZ9y3c+4Kjz441NX-5kiOyJxUR2qHhch1ysyLO5t_k1-a6DCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190811090524.57705c73@shlomo1.solomon>
 <20190811211739.7c669fee@mydesk.domain.cxm>
 <20190812081754.49d79d39@shlomo1.solomon>
 <CAGZ9y3c+4Kjz441NX-5kiOyJxUR2qHhch1ysyLO5t_k1-a6DCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d0e3aeba-c503-f48f-3ea7-acbf85aa598a@gmail.com>


this is software. software has bugs.

software packaging only seems simple - but in fact is really not, 
because of the exponential amount of combinations that simply can't be 
exhaustively tested, and because it depends on code written by thousands 
of unrelated developers, that work on their own software, not on the 
"linux disribution".

so occasionally you will have problems that you'll need to fix. how 
often? it's really a matter of luck, factored by the amount of 
configuration changes you do on your system.

--guy


On 12/08/2019 9:45 AM, Jeremy Hoyland wrote:
> Just to comment on your original post.
> Don't think for one moment that things are any better in Windows.
> The difference with APT issues is that there /is/?something you can do 
> about it, and ultimately, the problem is resolvable by you.
> In Windows things look a lot prettier, but I have often had an installer 
> fail with no reason given and then automatically roll-back with no recourse.
> The solutions there often required manual editing of the registry.
> I prefer APT any day.
> 
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 08:18, Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com 
> <mailto:shlomo.solomon at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Thanks for your VERY detailed reply. Some of it was "over my head", but
>     relevant and true - although I personally like and use KDE despite it
>     being quite bloated for many years now.
> 
>     As an aside - I got rid of KMail, Akonadi and all their "friends" years
>     ago. It's hard to believe that an email program has about 80
>     dependencies and "suggests" another 20 packages!!!
> 
>     As I wrote, I intentionally did not include too many details about the
>     problem since I was not really looking for a solution.
> 
>     The short version - this seemed to be caused by a broken dependency and
>     neither apt-get or dpkg were able to solve this until I manually
>     deleted a few post-install scripts. So the "blame" should probably fall
>     on the way apt-get and dpkg handle dependencies and/or such scripts,
>     and not so much on the Kubuntu maintainers.
> 
>     Although I did save the relevant apt and dpkg logs, I don't think
>     that contacting the Kubuntu maintainers will help because they will
>     probably "blame" the software developers who packaged the monodevelop
>     IDE (and provided there own PPA) - which never worked for me in the
>     first place so I probably should have uninstalled it months ago :-).
> 
> 
> 
>     On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 21:17:39 -0400
>     Steve Litt <slitt at troubleshooters.com
>     <mailto:slitt at troubleshooters.com>> wrote:
> 
>      > On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 09:05:24 +0300
>      > Shlomo Solomon <shlomo.solomon at gmail.com
>     <mailto:shlomo.solomon at gmail.com>> wrote:
>      >
>      > > Let me start by saying that I'm not looking for a solution - I
>      > > solved my problem. I'm just angry and letting off some steam.
>      >
>      > [snip successful attempts using a ~10 step apt/dpkg witch's brew]
>      >
>      > I feel your pain. Probably we all do.
>      >
>      > And it's likely the better people to let off steam at would be:
>      >
>      > 1) The maintainers of your distro
>      >
>      > 2) The maintainers of your "Desktop Environment", if any
>      >
>      > 3) The authors of the software concerned
>      >
>      >
>      > DISTRO:
>      >
>      > Your complaint isn't very detailed, but the fact that you needed apt
>      > to fix it suggests you're using a Debian derived distro. Most Debian
>      > extension distros, such as Ubuntu, Mint and Knoppix, add
>      > hypercomplexity in order to make them more magically "we do it all
>      > for you" and "user friendly", or just to make things look pretty.
>      >
>      > Debian itself, once a simplistic distro, has been slowly
>     complexifying
>      > itself, first by defaulting to selecting of that ball of
>      > confusion Gnome3, which itself has been complexifying at a remarkable
>      > rate, and then by pledging allegiance to systemd: The ultimate
>     ball of
>      > confusion.
>      >
>      > About the only apt packaged distro I could recommend today, from a
>      > dependency-sanity point of view, would be Devuan, which rejected
>      > both Gnome3 and systemd.
>      >
>      > I find it amusing that Debian's solution to substituting a
>     non-systemd
>      > init system involves a many-step raindance where you pin this package
>      > and hold back that package.
>      >
>      > Of course, Redhat and Redhat-derived distros are worse.
>      >
>      > Tell your distro maintainers to quit making package recommends into
>      > hard requirements, and to find better solutions than secret apt
>      > meetings with secret dpkg handshakes, or else consider not packaging
>      > it at all. There are usually substitutes and equivalents.
>      >
>      >
>      > DESKTOP ENVIRONMENTS:
>      >
>      > Desktop environments, which bind a window manager and a bunch of
>      > applications together, including all sorts of interdependencies and
>      > promiscuous communications inside and outside of dbus, were obviously
>      > a bad idea from the beginning, for people who want to control their
>      > computers rather than the other way around.
>      >
>      > If you use a desktop environment, write to them and tell them to
>      > reduce promiscuous communication and dependencies. They'll laugh at
>      > you, of course: Their purpose on this earth is to create obscenely
>      > interdependent black boxes.
>      >
>      > You can avoid a lot of this by going back to a window manager and
>      > selecting your applications a-la-carte, trying mightily not to
>     include
>      > desktop environment apps. If enough people were to do this (not very
>      > likely, most people are wedded to their "we do it all for you"
>      > environments), the "desktop environments" might catch on and put more
>      > of a priority on modularity and thin interfaces (or no interfaces
>      > where not needed).
>      >
>      > I kicked KDE and every KDE app and library off my computer in
>      > 2012-2013, and lived to tell about it. I've never used Gnome3, and
>      > slowly but surely I've been kicking its apps and libraries off my
>      > computer. Now I boss my computer around, not the other way around.
>      >
>      >
>      > THE SOFTWARE AUTHORS:
>      >
>      > True story. When using Python writing a piece of free software
>      > intended to be used by others, I needed one minor but not obvious how
>      > to code functionality. So I asked how to code it on the Python IRC
>      > channel. Not one answer, but three or four people told me to use some
>      > ginormous library, itself having lots of dependencies, that was not
>      > part of the standard Python distribution.
>      >
>      > I explained that I didn't need all that stuff, I just needed this one
>      > functionality. I didn't want my users to have to integrate this
>      > library into their systems. "No problem", one of the IRC denizens
>      > proclaimed, "that's what the Python <whatever> is for: You can build
>      > your own Python interpreter for your one application, and ship the
>      > interpreter along with the app". Look at your computer's clock: This
>      > is not an April Fools joke, this happened.
>      >
>      > If course I said "no", and then the real abuse happened, with the
>      > usual "don't reinvent the wheel" and "scared to learn new things" and
>      > a new creative diss: "Real programmers try new packages just to get
>      > familiar with them, it's a real opportunity!"
>      >
>      > Unfortunately, these guys weren't unusual. Way too many programmers,
>      > in the name of avoiding reinventing the wheel, integrate somebody
>      > else's wheel, when all they needed was an easily available single
>      > spoke. You know who suffers? The distro maintainers and the users.
>      >
>      > All too many developers put absolutely zero priority on simplicity.
>      > The slightest improvement in "pretty", or the slightest "improvement"
>      > to keep the user from having to use a text editor, is perfect
>      > justification to bring in a gargantuan software library with poorly
>      > documented API, lots of child dependencies, grandchild dependencies,
>      > and who knows how far down the tree it goes. And at any given time,
>      > at least one dependency of that software dependency tree gets
>     buggy or
>      > goes unmaintained or sets a dependency on something so modern it
>     won't
>      > work with your distro, and you get to use a 10 step apt/dpkg
>      > choreography.
>      >
>      > Tell the software authors your objections to gratuitous dependency
>      > inclusions, as well as unnecessary and unhelpful communications with
>      > barely related software. Tell them you choose software to work and
>      > keep on working, not to be pretty or spare you from using an editor.
>      >
>      > And then do what you told them: When evaluating free software
>      > alternatives, significantly downvote those with too many, or
>      > unnecessary, dependencies. And if the simpler software lacks a
>     feature
>      > you need, you can usually kludge it together with a couple
>      > shellscripts and maybe some Python/Perl/Ruby/Lua/awk/grep/sed. We all
>      > hate to kludge, but I think the ultimate kludge is some conceited
>      > developer requiring 100K lines of imported code to give a couple
>      > features he could have done in 100 lines of self-written code, if
>      > he'd bothered.
>      >
>      > I copied the GoLUG mailing list because it's my home-town LUG,
>     and the
>      > Devuan mailing list because they're the one direct Debian fork
>      > that eschews unnecessary dependencies and intermodular
>     communications.
>      > Notice that some forks and extensions of Devuan also keep complexity
>      > to a minimum.
>      >
>      > SteveT
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > Linux-il mailing list
>      > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il <mailto:Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il>
>      > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> 
> 
> 
>     -- 
>     Shlomo Solomon
>     http://the-solomons.net
>     Claws Mail 3.16.0 - Kubuntu 18.04
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     Linux-il mailing list
>     Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il <mailto:Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il>
>     http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> --
> Jeremy Hoyland
> jhoyland at gmail.com <mailto:jhoyland at gmail.com>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
> 



From shlomif at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 12:17:03 2019
From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 12:17:03 +0300
Subject: Some Bash/zsh helpers to convert away from bitbucket's mercurial repos
Message-ID: <CANy4znVRTHqHTpqriTXEP4ix150h0wyqrv-xGUUFJCUU-O=HqA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all!

Due to https://bitbucket.org/blog/sunsetting-mercurial-support-in-bitbucket
I wrote these and made them FOSS under the MIT / Expat licence:

https://github.com/shlomif/shlomif-computer-settings/blob/master/shlomif-settings/home-bin-executables/bin/bitbucket-hg-to-git--source-me.bash

Hope they can prove useful.

-- 
Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/

Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
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From efraim at flashner.co.il  Fri Aug 23 12:30:11 2019
From: efraim at flashner.co.il (Efraim Flashner)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 12:30:11 +0300
Subject: Some Bash/zsh helpers to convert away from bitbucket's mercurial
 repos
In-Reply-To: <CANy4znVRTHqHTpqriTXEP4ix150h0wyqrv-xGUUFJCUU-O=HqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANy4znVRTHqHTpqriTXEP4ix150h0wyqrv-xGUUFJCUU-O=HqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190823093011.GJ16976@E5400>

Alternatively, for anyone wishing to remain using mercurial, sourcehut
offers hosting of hg repositories. And has a "come on over from
bitbucket" script.

https://hg.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/invertbucket

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:17:03PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> Due to https://bitbucket.org/blog/sunsetting-mercurial-support-in-bitbucket
> I wrote these and made them FOSS under the MIT / Expat licence:
> 
> https://github.com/shlomif/shlomif-computer-settings/blob/master/shlomif-settings/home-bin-executables/bin/bitbucket-hg-to-git--source-me.bash
> 
> Hope they can prove useful.
> 
> -- 
> Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
> 
> Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature.
> 
> Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .

> _______________________________________________
> Linux-il mailing list
> Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il


-- 
Efraim Flashner   <efraim at flashner.co.il>   ????? ?????
GPG key = A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D  14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351
Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypted
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From shlomif at gmail.com  Sat Aug 24 13:31:37 2019
From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 13:31:37 +0300
Subject: Some Bash/zsh helpers to convert away from bitbucket's mercurial
 repos
In-Reply-To: <20190823093011.GJ16976@E5400>
References: <CANy4znVRTHqHTpqriTXEP4ix150h0wyqrv-xGUUFJCUU-O=HqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190823093011.GJ16976@E5400>
Message-ID: <CANy4znX-A0h3eJqTRo0xEMHc+Z8Nzzo=eGmgsuT7RgSm7BKXkw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:30 PM Efraim Flashner <efraim at flashner.co.il>
wrote:

> Alternatively, for anyone wishing to remain using mercurial, sourcehut
> offers hosting of hg repositories. And has a "come on over from
> bitbucket" script.
>
> https://hg.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/invertbucket
>
>
Thanks Efraim!

That may prove useful. That put aside, git established itself as the golden
standard for now and I don't like hg so much better to stick with it. See:

* https://better-scm.shlomifish.org/docs/this-site-is-irrelevant/

*
https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=the-last-mercurialian

If hg works for you, you are welcome to use it as it is after all FOSS.

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:17:03PM +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> > Hi all!
> >
> > Due to
> https://bitbucket.org/blog/sunsetting-mercurial-support-in-bitbucket
> > I wrote these and made them FOSS under the MIT / Expat licence:
> >
> >
> https://github.com/shlomif/shlomif-computer-settings/blob/master/shlomif-settings/home-bin-executables/bin/bitbucket-hg-to-git--source-me.bash
> >
> > Hope they can prove useful.
> >
> > --
> > Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/
> >
> > Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature.
> >
> > Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply
> .
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linux-il mailing list
> > Linux-il at cs.huji.ac.il
> > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
>
>
> --
> Efraim Flashner   <efraim at flashner.co.il>   ????? ?????
> GPG key = A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D  14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351
> Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypted
>


-- 
Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/

Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
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From d.s at daniel.shahaf.name  Sat Aug 24 20:53:19 2019
From: d.s at daniel.shahaf.name (Daniel Shahaf)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 17:53:19 +0000
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Some_Bash/zsh_helpers_to_convert_away_from_bitbucket's_mer?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?curial_repos?=
In-Reply-To: <CANy4znX-A0h3eJqTRo0xEMHc+Z8Nzzo=eGmgsuT7RgSm7BKXkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANy4znVRTHqHTpqriTXEP4ix150h0wyqrv-xGUUFJCUU-O=HqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190823093011.GJ16976@E5400>
 <CANy4znX-A0h3eJqTRo0xEMHc+Z8Nzzo=eGmgsuT7RgSm7BKXkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2880dd07-7ad7-47db-b687-f6bf50a3e2bf@www.fastmail.com>

Shlomi Fish wrote on Sat, 24 Aug 2019 10:32 +00:00:
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:30 PM Efraim Flashner <efraim at flashner.co.il> wrote:
> > Alternatively, for anyone wishing to remain using mercurial, sourcehut
> >  offers hosting of hg repositories. And has a "come on over from
> >  bitbucket" script.
> > 
> > https://hg.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/invertbucket
> > 
> 
> [...] git established itself as the golden standard for now

Yes, that's a good point: when deciding on a version control system,
choosing a more popular one means that (all else being equal) the
average new contributor would have a lower learning curve.

This point is applicable to any shared resource: for example, the
programming language of choice, build dependencies, etc.


From shlomif at gmail.com  Sat Aug 24 21:50:44 2019
From: shlomif at gmail.com (Shlomi Fish)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 21:50:44 +0300
Subject: Some Bash/zsh helpers to convert away from bitbucket's mercurial
 repos
In-Reply-To: <2880dd07-7ad7-47db-b687-f6bf50a3e2bf@www.fastmail.com>
References: <CANy4znVRTHqHTpqriTXEP4ix150h0wyqrv-xGUUFJCUU-O=HqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190823093011.GJ16976@E5400>
 <CANy4znX-A0h3eJqTRo0xEMHc+Z8Nzzo=eGmgsuT7RgSm7BKXkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2880dd07-7ad7-47db-b687-f6bf50a3e2bf@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANy4znUjkwFxtty69kpN3WLaPW7WQ8ne_zaT14wB0r7nxgBA9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Daniel,

On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 8:53 PM Daniel Shahaf <d.s at daniel.shahaf.name>
wrote:

> Shlomi Fish wrote on Sat, 24 Aug 2019 10:32 +00:00:
> > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:30 PM Efraim Flashner <efraim at flashner.co.il>
> wrote:
> > > Alternatively, for anyone wishing to remain using mercurial, sourcehut
> > >  offers hosting of hg repositories. And has a "come on over from
> > >  bitbucket" script.
> > >
> > > https://hg.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/invertbucket
> > >
> >
> > [...] git established itself as the golden standard for now
>
> Yes, that's a good point: when deciding on a version control system,
> choosing a more popular one means that (all else being equal) the
> average new contributor would have a lower learning curve.
>
> This point is applicable to any shared resource: for example, the
> programming language of choice, build dependencies, etc.
>

I don't fully agree (see
https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=two-kinds-of-fools
and https://shlomif.livejournal.com/11889.html ) but regading git I feel
that all other DVCSes are either not much better to be worth using instead
or otherwise have significant drawbacks (see
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Apps/vcs.html ) to not be worth the trouble of
using instead (unless you are involved in a project that uses one). And git
is, albeit not perfect, good, and is FOSS, so I feel I can trust it (see
https://www.shlomifish.org/philosophy/computers/open-source/not-trust-non-FOSS/
).

-- 
Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/

Buddha has the Chuck Norris nature.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
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From pub at goldshmidt.org  Mon Aug 26 08:54:15 2019
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 08:54:15 +0300
Subject: [JOB OPENING] full stack software engineer at TrapX Security
Message-ID: <87k1b04gl4.fsf@goldshmidt.org>


Hi everyone,

TrapX Security (https://trapx.com), the world leader in Deception
Technology (I'll let you Google), is starting several new and exciting
strategic projects and is seeking to expand its R&D department. This
post is one of several, referring to various open positions with the
company.

The following job description fits more than one current vacancy. If
you think that in addition to the qualifications listed you have what
it takes to lead a (small) team then you should indicate this in your
application. To be considered for a team leader position your CV must
reflect a proven significant record of building and managing a team.
Being a team leader carries obvous responsibilities in addition to
100% hands-on development work, and all the required qualifications
below apply equally.

Please do not reply to the list. If you or any of your friends are
interested please send your CV and a cover letter/email to
oleg AT trapx.com and I will forward your application to the
relevant hiring manager.

------------------------------------

Position: Senior Full Stack Engineer

Employment Type: Full time

Location: Ramat HaHayal, Tel Aviv

Responsibilities:

* Lead design and development of the company's next generation
  products, both cloud- and enterprise-based.

* Effectively communicate with fellow R&D team members as well as with
  DevOps, QA, Support, Product teams on a daily basis.

Essential Background and Skills:

* 5+ years of proven experience in Python or NodeJS and associated
  development frameworks. Knowledge and experience in other programming
  languages and technologies will be considered an advantage.

* Experience in relational databases (NOSQL databases - an advantage).

* Experience in design and development of REST APIs

* Experience with Linux and its toolchain.

* Background and experience in cloud and virtualized environments -
  at least some of AWS, Azure, GCP, VMware, OpenStack, VMware, KVM,
  Hyper-V.

* Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or a related field.

* Experience at startups and growth-stage tech companies.

* Excellent interpersonal and written communication skills.

* Highly driven and independent. Fast self-learner. 

* Ability to work individually and in small teams. Ability to plan
  ahead and execute according to plan. Efficient and transparent
  communication.

* Cyber security background - an advantage.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Mon Aug 26 09:00:34 2019
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:00:34 +0300
Subject: [JOB OPENING] system/infrastructure software engineer at TrapX
 Security
Message-ID: <87ftlo4gal.fsf@goldshmidt.org>


Hi everyone,

TrapX Security (https://trapx.com), the world leader in Deception
Technology (I'll let you Google), is starting several new and exciting
strategic projects and is seeking to expand its R&D department. This
post is one of several, referring to various open positions with the
company.

The following job description fits more than one current vacancy. If
you think that in addition to the qualifications listed you have what
it takes to lead a (small) team then you should indicate this in your
application. To be considered for a team leader position your CV must
reflect a proven significant record of building and managing a team.
Being a team leader carries obvous responsibilities in addition to
100% hands-on development work, and all the required qualifications
below apply equally.

Please do not reply to the list. If you or any of your friends are
interested please send your CV and a cover letter/email to
oleg AT trapx.com and I will forward your application to the
relevant hiring manager.

--------------------------------

Position: Senior Linux System/Infrastructure Software Engineer

Employment Type: Full time

Location: Ramat Hahayal, Tel Aviv

Responsibilities:

* Take an active part in all software lifecycle stages, including
  requirement analysis, design, implementation, debug, integration,
  deployment, documentation, long term maintenance, troubleshooting,
  and training.

* Come up with robust and innovative engineering solutions to satisfy
  new product requirements, implement new features, etc.

* Troubleshoot production issues and customer-facing incidents.

* Effectively communicate with fellow R&D team members as well as
  with DevOps, QA, Support, Product teams on a daily basis.

Essential Background and Skills:

* Bachelor's degree in Computer Science or a related field.

* Highly driven and independent. Fast self-learner. Proven ability and
  propensity to RTFM.

* Ability to work individually and in small teams. Ability to plan
  ahead and execute according to plan. Efficient and transparent
  communication.

* Thorough understanding of major programming paradigms such as
  object-oriented, functional, procedural, data-driven programming.

* 5+ years of proven experience in python and C development of
  production quality software in Linux environment, using Linux
  toolchain.

* Deep knowledge and proven experience in Linux/UNIX system and
  network programming, multiprocessing/multithreading, IPC, TCP/IP,
  major application level protocols, client-server programming,
  messaging systems, API design, etc. 

* Experience in relational databases and SQL.

* Solid background and experience in cloud and virtualized
  environments - at least some of AWS, Azure, GCP, VMware, OpenStack,
  VMware, KVM, Hyper-V.

* Solid understanding of security concepts (network, OS,
  applications).

Additional Desired Skills:

* Experience in C++ and other programming and/or scripting languages -
  a significant advantage.

* Linux system and network administration experience - an advantage.

* DBA experience, NOSQL experience - an advantage.

* Experience with message queues (RabbitMQ, Kafka, MSMQ, IBM MQ,
  etc.) - an advantage.

* Experience in kernel development - an advantage.

* Cyber security background - an advantage.

* Knowledge of and experience in Windows internals - an advantage.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org


From pub at goldshmidt.org  Mon Aug 26 09:04:59 2019
From: pub at goldshmidt.org (Oleg Goldshmidt)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:04:59 +0300
Subject: [JOB OPENING] QA automation engineer at TrapX Security
Message-ID: <87blwc4g38.fsf@goldshmidt.org>


Hi everyone,

TrapX Security (https://trapx.com), the world leader in Deception
Technology (I'll let you Google), is starting several new and exciting
strategic projects and is seeking to expand its R&D department. This
post is one of several, referring to various open positions with the
company.

Please do not reply to the list. If you or any of your friends are
interested please send your CV and a cover letter/email to
oleg AT trapx.com and I will forward your application to the
relevant hiring manager.

----------------------------------------------

Position: QA Automation Engineer

Position Type: Full time

Location: Tel-Aviv (Ramat HaHayal)

Job Description:

- As a member of the company's QA team plan, develop, and execute manual
  and automatic tests on the product during development and pre-release
  phases.

- Developing automatic testing tools (Linux, Windows).

- Testing Client?Server, Web, Desktop applications.

Personal Qualifications:

- Highly motivated, autonomous and intelligent. 

- Independent, hardworking, creative, focused and organized.

- Very organized and able to work according to pre-defined methodology.

- Ability to understand overall system functionality.

- Problem solver, following each activity through to completion.

Professional Requirements:

- At least 2-3 years of experience in automatic testing of software on
  Linux and Windows.

- 2-3 years of experience with both manual and automation testing.

- Knowledge in automation technologies.

- Experience with DB, client/server applications, Python applications.

- Python development experience - must.

- Knowledge of shell programming (preferably bash, must), perl (desired).

- Experience working in a mixed Linux/UNIX and Windows environment.

- Linux based systems experience - must.

- Basic knowledge in networking - must.

- Experience with a defect tracking system (JIRA - desired).

- Experience with virtualization technologies - advantage.

- Experience with AWS, Azure or other cloud environments - advantage.

-- 
Oleg Goldshmidt | pub at goldshmidt.org